The Bowler or Derby Hat

[Brad Bowers]

I hope you know, this makes you royalty on the lounge.

Vic's correct, and I'm honored to have you here. Welcome to the Lounge, Mr. Nelson.

In case you haven't run across me on here before, I'm an historian, and have been working for several years on a history of John Cavanagh and C&K, so I have nothing but the utmost respect for all your great-grandfather achieved with C&K. I'm also working on something special to honor the Derby on what is its generally-accepted 150th Anniversary next year, if the plan comes together.

BTW, that's a Dobbs Derby in my avatar photo, as I have yet to acquire a C&K Derby in my size.

Once again, welcome, and thanks for jumping into the conversation.

Brad

 

[Nick D]

I finally won a bowler on eBay, a Dunn & Co (which is the same company who made my homburg). I'm really looking forward to getting it.

 

[Lefty]

TMy grandfather, James Howard Knapp, copied the British style and created the name when he introduced them in New York City in the mid-1800's.
I never met my great-granfather but I was named for his son Philip and I knew John Cavanaugh and Bob Holmes as a child.
Philip Knapp Nelson

Mark me down as yet another person who'd love to read any stories you've got about your grandfather, hatters, and the business. Please share, we'd love to hear what you have to say.

 

[jwalls]

Derby brims

My hatter has access to traditional flanges for derbies. Unfortunately, the hand sewing involved in the off set binding and the unavailblity of old style silk binding ribbon would require a price point most of us would find excessive. For me a tight pencil roll looks a bit more stylish anyway.

 

[galopede]

I finally won a bowler on eBay, a Dunn & Co (which is the same company who made my homburg). I'm really looking forward to getting it.

I wear a bowler when playing the squeezebox for my local morris side. I picked up a lovely Dunn's bowler from ebay a couple of years ago. Sold as used but I would have said it was new. Lovely hat and just the right size.

Must have been one of the last Dunn's sold as it has the size in metric as well as Imperial. Not a really solid one but much better than the grotty thing I had before!

If it's in good nick, I think you'll enjoy your Dunn's.

I actually bought my first hat, a tweed flat 'at, from Dunn's many years ago. They were a great old company and I'm sad they didn't survive.

Gareth

 

[Brad Bowers]

Cavanagh Women's Equestrian Derby

I killed three birds with one stone on this hat. I've been wanting to add a brown Derby to my collection, a Cavanagh women's hat, and an equestrian Derby. Got it all in one package for a little over $20, and it's in my wife's hat size. She says I have to buy her a horse now so she can wear it.

I still want to find a brown Cavanagh Derby in MY size.lol

Brad

 

[Lone_Ranger]

Nice looking hat! ^ What's the function elastic strap on that last picture?

 

[billysmom]

The elastic is to wear under the chin while riding. Bowlers are traditional riding attire and things do get a bit active when galloping cross country and over fences. It can get dangerous to stop everything to go chasing off after a hat.

The "hunt cap" that we associate with fox hunting is actually for the staff of the hunt. Female members wear bowlers. Brown would be more for "ratcatcher" casual days, while black is for regular hunt days.

Sue

 

[Lone_Ranger]

Ahh, I see. (on a western hat it's called a 'stampede strap')

I'm familiar with the Ratcatcher vs Formal distinction. I just took it for granted, since the entire field wears a hunt style cap these days. Mostly because the protective helmets, are designed to look that way. You'd have to go back a few years, before anyone would consider jumping fences, without a "brain bucket." With the modern riding helmet being around, for 50 years or so, I forget that the bowler originally was a protective 'helmet.'

 

[Dreispitz]

The elastic is to wear under the chin while riding.

Hm, positioned in the back third? Guess the lady was supposed to wear her hair as a knot and position the elastic below.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Hm, positioned in the back third? Guess the lady was supposed to wear her hair as a knot and position the elastic below.

That was my thought, too, but my wife has short hair, so I couldn't test that idea. It seemed to fit okay under her chin, but I'm really not sure which way it's supposed to be worn.

I'm too used to wearing a western hat when I ride.lol

Brad

 

[Dreispitz]

That was my thought, too, but my wife has short hair, so I couldn't test that idea. It seemed to fit okay under her chin, but I'm really not sure which way it's supposed to be worn.

I'm too used to wearing a western hat when I ride.lol

Brad

I usually ride bareheaded However, in summer, sometimes I wear a Piths Helmet. Used to be jolly good fun riding attacks with a riding whip as a saber replacement with our now old Hannover Horse (the one that was to be seen in one of my previous posts).

 

[Philip K Nelson]

James Howard Knapp

I feel very fortunate to have discovered this web site. I have a lot of information about the Knapp hatters and C&K but I do have some problem getting used to navigating and adressing specific comments such as Brad's ( about wanting C&K and Cavanagh information.

I did want to offer a brief blurb on my great-granfather James. I was hoping to attach a portrait of him commissioned by his son, Philip Nichols Knapp, my grandfather. However the "Insert Image" link is not cooperating. James was born in New York City 1n 1832 and died in Norwalk CT in 1913. He learned hat making from start to finish in Litchfield, Ct and opened his first shop in an old cow shed. He took Andrew J Crofut into the business after successfully producing his version of the bowler, calling it the "Derby". John Cavanagh was recruited into C&K, but I am not sure of the date. When James died his son Phil was made Chairman of the Board and John Cavanagh the President.

I have lots more to write about, including the story of General MacArthurs famous hats (They were C&K)
Philip K Nelson MD

 

[Dreispitz]

I have lots more to write about, including the story of General MacArthurs famous hats (They were C&K)
Philip K Nelson MD

Maybe, you can find some technical advice on how to post pictures, etc., here.

Good lord, that is getting thrilling, really. Cannot wait to learn more!

 

[Brad Bowers]

We're glad to have you here, and are willing listeners to anything you'd like to share with us.

I have a lot of information about the Knapp hatters and C&K but I do have some problem getting used to navigating and adressing specific comments such as Brad's.

The "Quote" button under each person's post allows you to quote that post, as I did above. As for uploading photos, they can't be uploaded directly to the Lounge, and instead have to be hosted offsite on a free photo-hosting service, like Photobucket.com, which is the one I use. If you'd rather not go to that much trouble, I or anyone else would be glad to help out. We'd love to see the portrait. I've got a copy of a photo of James H. Knapp in my files, but portraits have so much more life to them.

I did want to offer a brief blurb on my great-granfather James. I was hoping to attach a portrait of him commissioned by his son, Philip Nichols Knapp, my grandfather. However the "Insert Image" link is not cooperating. James was born in New York City 1n 1832 and died in Norwalk CT in 1913. He learned hat making from start to finish in Litchfield, Ct and opened his first shop in an old cow shed. He took Andrew J Crofut into the business after successfully producing his version of the bowler, calling it the "Derby". John Cavanagh was recruited into C&K, but I am not sure of the date. When James died his son Phil was made Chairman of the Board and John Cavanagh the President.

Thanks, I hadn't heard about the cow shed. Can't ask for any more humble beginning for a company than that! Great story.

As for John Cavanagh, I don't have an exact date, either, but it was around 1884-85. Cavanagh started work in the hat industry in about 1881, at the age of 17. He worked at the small factory of William A. Brown there in Norwalk, where he started out by stoking the fires for the finisher's irons. Cavanagh quickly worked his way up through the various positions at the Brown factory, finishing a brim curler. His ambition was larger than the size of the Brown factory allowed, apparently, for he left there and worked briefly at C&K sometime around 1884, when the union troubles were beginning. During the work disruption, Cavanagh left C&K and looked for work in Brooklyn, but he was re-hired at C&K around 1885, after the crippling strike was settled. It was your grandfather Philip who got John Cavanagh on permanently at C&K, because he was good friends with Cavanagh's brother.

I have lots more to write about, including the story of General MacArthurs famous hats (They were C&K)
Philip K Nelson MD

I look forward to hearing this story!

Brad

 

[Philip K Nelson]

Thanks for the welcome and the tips

This is exciting for me too. I've had these stories saved up for a long time (I'm 81) and its nice to have a group that wants to here them. Once I get the hang of it I will start posting photos. Phil Knapp, my gandpa, doted on my older brother Pete and I. I have a picture somewhere of Grandpa and Pete- who was wearing a special miniature derby ordered for him. Pete died three years ago, but last night I was talking to his widow and she still has that tiny derby. I'll get a picture of that posted soon. Stay tuned
Phil Nelson

 

[Philip K Nelson]

Pictures of James H Knapp

I really appreciate your help- I visited the FAQ page and uploaded these three pictures (I hope). The portrait of JHK was by Hubert Vos, and was commissioned by his son Philip. It hangs in my dining room just as it did in Phil Knapp's home-it was done about 1900. There is also a photograph done shortly before his death and a family portrait done in 1870. James and his wife Mariette (Hoyt) standing (she holding Jessie, who died in infancy). In front from L. to R. are his mother-in-law, Sally Nichols, Philip, James's mother (name unknown), Martha (m.Geo Kunhardt) and Howard. Son James not born yet.
Philip K Nelson MD (if this works out I'll post the Gen.MacArthur tale and pics)

 

[Brad Bowers]

It did indeed work, though you posted the thumbnails instead of the full-size versions. I don't know if you intended to do that or not, but looks like you've got the hang of it now.

Wonderful images, especially the Hubert Vos portrait and the family photo. The photograph protrait is also different from the one I've seen, and a better one, I might add.

Thanks for sharing.

Brad

 

[MisterGrey]

Looking at vintage derbies/bowlers, it seems they were nominally black in the UK, with some brown occasionally cropping up in the US. During the bowler's reign, were shades of brown simply not a popular suit color for men, or was it seen as acceptable to match a black derby with a brown outfit?

 

[Brad Bowers]

I don't necessarily know about the acceptability of mixing brown and black during the Bowler/Derby heyday, but in the U.S., a brown Derby was considered dressier than a black one, which is why they weren't seen quite as often. Black was less formal, which is the opposite of what we accept today. I would think a black Derby could be worn with a brown suit.

Brad