anselmo1
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jake431 said:
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The Spanish Civil War
- Thread starter Salv
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Salv
One Too Many
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anselmo1 said:
You seem to be backing down from your claim that the Comintern held any influence over the Popular Front prior to the start of the war. We're getting somewhere.
anselmo1 said:
No, it was mentioned that the Communists held 14 seats in the Cortes, out of a total of 424 seats. I make that about 3.3%. But yes, Communist influence increased during the course of the war due to the refusal of the US, the UK and France to sell arms to a democratically elected government. It could therefore be argued that the US was partly responsible for the spread of Communism in Spain by forcing the Republic to buy arms from the Soviets.
anselmo1 said:
Objective? You? That made me smile.
And for the umpteenth time, Spain was never a Communist state, and would in all probability never have been a Communist state.
anselmo1 said:
And what does Stanley G. Payne have to say about Communist influence on the Popular Front prior to the arrival of arms shipments from Russia?
anselmo1
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Stanley G. Payne. The Spanish Civil War, the Soviet Union, and Communism. New Haven: Yale University Press. 2004.
Shortly after it broke out in July 1936, the Spanish Civil War developed into something more than just a domestic affair. The intervention of Italy, Portugal, Germany, and the Soviet Union inevitably widened the significance of a struggle that aroused intense passions, not just among politicians and diplomats but also among actors, artists, poets, and writers as well as ordinary men and women across Europe and the Americas. After being locked in a brutal and devastating war for nearly three years, Spain succumbed to a right-wing military dictatorship, a tragic outcome that would haunt the country long after the fighting had ended.
Efforts over the years to interpret what happened in Spain during the most tumultuous period of its recent past have produced an immense and highly contentious historiography. In Francisco Franco's era (1939–1975), for example, the war was portrayed as a modern-day crusade that pitted the forces of Christianity and Western civilization against those of the godless communists or rojos. The political right was not alone in viewing the struggle in Manichean terms. Many of the supporters of Republican Spain have long insisted on seeing the war as the last great attempt to halt fascism before it was too late. It was, in this sense, regarded as a prologue to World War II. The dichotomous nature of Civil War historiography was reinforced by the polarized political climate of the Cold War (1948–1989), and, with few exceptions, it continues to define the terms of the scholarly debates and discussions about the subject.
The latest contribution to Civil War literature is by Stanley G. Payne, a scholar who has long studied the military, ideological, and political history of modern Spain. The generally neutral tone of his contributions in these areas—largely a product of the influence the social science model of "objectivity" has had on his historical approach—has meant that no serious scholar can legitimately accuse him of being an apologist for either the Nationalists or Republicans. Yet his well-known antipathies toward the Spanish left in general and toward the communists in particular will no doubt cause some to classify this book as another contribution to the partisan literature on the subject. This would be a pity, as Payne's latest work is neither ideological nor polemical. Rather, it is a judicious and diligently researched study that has important and new things to say about a well-worn dimension of the conflict.
The most provocative thesis advanced by Payne is his argument that the Spanish Communist Party (PCE) and the Soviet communists did not, as so often is assumed in Civil War historiography, play a counterrevolutionary role in Republican Spain. This is because Payne insists that most historians have either consistently overlooked or misread the communists' own strategy for pursuing revolutionary goals in the era of the Popular Front. The author points out, for example, that it was the particular circumstances of the mid-1930s that impelled the communists to jettison their highly unsuccessful, head-on confrontational tactics of the so-called "Third period."
The Third Period was the ultra-left policy adopted by the Comintern at the end of the Soviet Union's New Economic Policy in 1928 and was in place until the adoption of the Popular Front policy in 1935.
The Third Period policy was based on Stalin's theory of class struggle in which the "First Period" that followed World War I saw the upsurge and defeat of the working class and the "Second Period" was the time for capitalist consolidation. The Third Period was conceived by the Comintern in 1928 as the time for working class revolution.
The Third Period policy came to an abrupt end with the inauguration of the Popular Front policy in 1935. The sudden 180¬? turn in the policy of the Comintern in 1935 caused considerable confusion among those workers who had been drawn in by the ultra-left rhetoric during the Third Period.
In response to the growing threat of fascism in the 1930s, Communist parties that were members of the Comintern (then largely under the control of Joseph Stalin) adopted a policy of forming broad alliances with almost any political party willing to oppose the fascists. These were called "popular fronts". Some popular fronts won elections and formed governments, as in France (Front Populaire), the Second Spanish Republic, and Chile. Others never quite got off the ground (there were attempts in the United Kingdom to found a Popular Front against the National Government's appeasement of Nazi Germany, between the Labour Party, the Liberal Party, the Independent Labour Party, the Communist Party, and even rebellious elements of the Conservative Party under Winston Churchill, but they failed due to opposition from within the Labour Party).
The Popular Front policy of the Comintern was introduced in 1934, succeeding its ultra-left "Third Period" during which it condemned non-Communist socialist parties as "social fascist". The new policy was signalled in a Pravda article of May 1934, which commented favourably on socialist-Communist collaboration. In June 1934, Leon Blum's Socialist Party signed a pact of united action with the French Communist Party, extended to the Radical Party in October. In May 1935, France and Russia signed a defensive alliance and in August 1935, the Comintern's Seventh Congress officially endorsed the Popular Front strategy. In the elections of May 1936, the Popular Front won a majority of parliamentary seats (378 deputies against 220), and Leon Blum formed a government.
In Italy, the Comintern advised an alliance between the Italian Communist Party and the Italian Socialist Party, but this was rejected by the Socialists. Similarly, in the United States, the CPUSA sought a joint Socialist-Communist ticket with Norman Thomas's Socialist Party of America in the 1936 presidential election but the Socialists rejected this overture. The CPUSA also offered critical support to Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal in this period. The Popular Front period in the USA saw the CP taking a very patriotic and populist line, later called Browderism. According to some historians, Joseph Stalin used the concept of the Popular Front to solidify control of the Communist Party of the United States (CPUSA) and to suppress criticism from those in the radical left after the Moscow show trials and subsequent series of executions and assassinations.
The Popular Front period came to an end with the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact between Nazi Germany and Russia, at which point Comintern parties turned from a policy of anti-fascism to one of advocating peace.
In short, the Communists would have made a pack with Satan if it would have furthered their cause. Anything to spread Communism at the expense of anyone that stood in their way!
Shortly after it broke out in July 1936, the Spanish Civil War developed into something more than just a domestic affair. The intervention of Italy, Portugal, Germany, and the Soviet Union inevitably widened the significance of a struggle that aroused intense passions, not just among politicians and diplomats but also among actors, artists, poets, and writers as well as ordinary men and women across Europe and the Americas. After being locked in a brutal and devastating war for nearly three years, Spain succumbed to a right-wing military dictatorship, a tragic outcome that would haunt the country long after the fighting had ended.
Efforts over the years to interpret what happened in Spain during the most tumultuous period of its recent past have produced an immense and highly contentious historiography. In Francisco Franco's era (1939–1975), for example, the war was portrayed as a modern-day crusade that pitted the forces of Christianity and Western civilization against those of the godless communists or rojos. The political right was not alone in viewing the struggle in Manichean terms. Many of the supporters of Republican Spain have long insisted on seeing the war as the last great attempt to halt fascism before it was too late. It was, in this sense, regarded as a prologue to World War II. The dichotomous nature of Civil War historiography was reinforced by the polarized political climate of the Cold War (1948–1989), and, with few exceptions, it continues to define the terms of the scholarly debates and discussions about the subject.
The latest contribution to Civil War literature is by Stanley G. Payne, a scholar who has long studied the military, ideological, and political history of modern Spain. The generally neutral tone of his contributions in these areas—largely a product of the influence the social science model of "objectivity" has had on his historical approach—has meant that no serious scholar can legitimately accuse him of being an apologist for either the Nationalists or Republicans. Yet his well-known antipathies toward the Spanish left in general and toward the communists in particular will no doubt cause some to classify this book as another contribution to the partisan literature on the subject. This would be a pity, as Payne's latest work is neither ideological nor polemical. Rather, it is a judicious and diligently researched study that has important and new things to say about a well-worn dimension of the conflict.
The most provocative thesis advanced by Payne is his argument that the Spanish Communist Party (PCE) and the Soviet communists did not, as so often is assumed in Civil War historiography, play a counterrevolutionary role in Republican Spain. This is because Payne insists that most historians have either consistently overlooked or misread the communists' own strategy for pursuing revolutionary goals in the era of the Popular Front. The author points out, for example, that it was the particular circumstances of the mid-1930s that impelled the communists to jettison their highly unsuccessful, head-on confrontational tactics of the so-called "Third period."
The Third Period was the ultra-left policy adopted by the Comintern at the end of the Soviet Union's New Economic Policy in 1928 and was in place until the adoption of the Popular Front policy in 1935.
The Third Period policy was based on Stalin's theory of class struggle in which the "First Period" that followed World War I saw the upsurge and defeat of the working class and the "Second Period" was the time for capitalist consolidation. The Third Period was conceived by the Comintern in 1928 as the time for working class revolution.
The Third Period policy came to an abrupt end with the inauguration of the Popular Front policy in 1935. The sudden 180¬? turn in the policy of the Comintern in 1935 caused considerable confusion among those workers who had been drawn in by the ultra-left rhetoric during the Third Period.
In response to the growing threat of fascism in the 1930s, Communist parties that were members of the Comintern (then largely under the control of Joseph Stalin) adopted a policy of forming broad alliances with almost any political party willing to oppose the fascists. These were called "popular fronts". Some popular fronts won elections and formed governments, as in France (Front Populaire), the Second Spanish Republic, and Chile. Others never quite got off the ground (there were attempts in the United Kingdom to found a Popular Front against the National Government's appeasement of Nazi Germany, between the Labour Party, the Liberal Party, the Independent Labour Party, the Communist Party, and even rebellious elements of the Conservative Party under Winston Churchill, but they failed due to opposition from within the Labour Party).
The Popular Front policy of the Comintern was introduced in 1934, succeeding its ultra-left "Third Period" during which it condemned non-Communist socialist parties as "social fascist". The new policy was signalled in a Pravda article of May 1934, which commented favourably on socialist-Communist collaboration. In June 1934, Leon Blum's Socialist Party signed a pact of united action with the French Communist Party, extended to the Radical Party in October. In May 1935, France and Russia signed a defensive alliance and in August 1935, the Comintern's Seventh Congress officially endorsed the Popular Front strategy. In the elections of May 1936, the Popular Front won a majority of parliamentary seats (378 deputies against 220), and Leon Blum formed a government.
In Italy, the Comintern advised an alliance between the Italian Communist Party and the Italian Socialist Party, but this was rejected by the Socialists. Similarly, in the United States, the CPUSA sought a joint Socialist-Communist ticket with Norman Thomas's Socialist Party of America in the 1936 presidential election but the Socialists rejected this overture. The CPUSA also offered critical support to Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal in this period. The Popular Front period in the USA saw the CP taking a very patriotic and populist line, later called Browderism. According to some historians, Joseph Stalin used the concept of the Popular Front to solidify control of the Communist Party of the United States (CPUSA) and to suppress criticism from those in the radical left after the Moscow show trials and subsequent series of executions and assassinations.
The Popular Front period came to an end with the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact between Nazi Germany and Russia, at which point Comintern parties turned from a policy of anti-fascism to one of advocating peace.
In short, the Communists would have made a pack with Satan if it would have furthered their cause. Anything to spread Communism at the expense of anyone that stood in their way!
Salv
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Where, in that review of Payne's book, does it state that the Popular Front was controlled by the Comintern prior to the start of the Spanish Civil War? Where does it confirm your belief that the war started as an anti-Communist crusade to protect the Catholic church. In fact, where does it contradict anything that has been said by others on this thread already?
Sierra Charriba
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I would like to speak and to write english much more better than now to express my opinions and discuss, with real data, the truth about the Spanish Civil War. But only I can say some things: in 1936 my father was a young falangist that participated in the military uprising of the Cuartel de la Monta?±a, saving his life miracously. He was arrested, judged and imprisoned for the rest of war as you can read in Ronald Fraser‚Äôs ‚ÄúBlood of Spain‚Äù (you can look for the story of ‚ÄúRey, Mario‚Äù, my father, in the name‚Äôs index). My uncle, also falangist, was shot. I know well the Civil War history because the war affected, absolutely, the life of my parents until its death. My father had nightmares during long years and I knew of which it happened to him in 1936 in the book of Ronald Fraser, and not because he wanted to tell me about it . So, I do not have any reason to be friend of revolutionary or communists.
Everybody knows, here in Spain, that the named "red terror" of first months of war was not organizated by the republic government, but the groups of fanatics and people out of control looking for insane revenge. And, if the communist gained positions in Spain, it was because France and, mainly, Great Britain, left alone the Republic, that did not have more option than to go to the Soviet Union to buy arms to defend herself. The blindness of the western democracies was not to see that Spain's war was the first battle of World War II and that error would fully pay it as of 1940.
Some member of this forum is asked, what had happened if the Republic had won the war? Then I answer that, possibly, Hitler and Mussolini would have had it much more difficult to start WWII and perhaps million European lives would have been saved only if the European democracies had been next to the Spanish democracy. A british poster of this era told, about the fascists bombings: “If you tolerate this, then your children will be the next”. And it was right.
Regards
Sierra Charriba
Everybody knows, here in Spain, that the named "red terror" of first months of war was not organizated by the republic government, but the groups of fanatics and people out of control looking for insane revenge. And, if the communist gained positions in Spain, it was because France and, mainly, Great Britain, left alone the Republic, that did not have more option than to go to the Soviet Union to buy arms to defend herself. The blindness of the western democracies was not to see that Spain's war was the first battle of World War II and that error would fully pay it as of 1940.
Some member of this forum is asked, what had happened if the Republic had won the war? Then I answer that, possibly, Hitler and Mussolini would have had it much more difficult to start WWII and perhaps million European lives would have been saved only if the European democracies had been next to the Spanish democracy. A british poster of this era told, about the fascists bombings: “If you tolerate this, then your children will be the next”. And it was right.
Regards
Sierra Charriba
Salv
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Sierra Charriba said:
Sierra, your English is fine and your meaning is perfectly clear, and I'm very grateful to you for your contributions to this thread. Your first-hand knowledge of life under Franco, and your families experiences during the war itself, are invaluable.
Salv, I have really enjoyed your posts in this thread. I'll admit I don't know a huge amount about the Spanish Civil War but have learnt much from this thread and especially your posts. Nice to read posts from someone who knows his onions.
And Sierra, I agree with Salv, it's great to hear from someone who's family lived through it and someone who has experienced firsthand the consequences of it.
Keep it coming lads, thoroughly interesting.
And Sierra, I agree with Salv, it's great to hear from someone who's family lived through it and someone who has experienced firsthand the consequences of it.
Keep it coming lads, thoroughly interesting.
dr greg
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speaking personally
I was in Spain in 1974, in the dying days of the dictatorship, and I can still recall the climate of tension that existed if you were anywhere away from the coastal resorts. Many times I saw walls that still bore bulletholes, and an old man told me they were never repaired on purpose to remind the people of what to expect if they decided to exercise any opposition. One salient statistic of that conflict was that more people were executed behind the lines than died in combat, and as I've said before, the Nationalist tally was 4 times that of the Left. It doesn't matter what might have happened, what's more important is what did.
I was in Spain in 1974, in the dying days of the dictatorship, and I can still recall the climate of tension that existed if you were anywhere away from the coastal resorts. Many times I saw walls that still bore bulletholes, and an old man told me they were never repaired on purpose to remind the people of what to expect if they decided to exercise any opposition. One salient statistic of that conflict was that more people were executed behind the lines than died in combat, and as I've said before, the Nationalist tally was 4 times that of the Left. It doesn't matter what might have happened, what's more important is what did.
Roger
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Why should the US, Britain and France be obligated to help a brutal dictatorship that murdered thousands just because they were "democratically elected"? Makes no sense.:rage:
Salv
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Which brutal dictatorship is this?
Dr Doran
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Interesting thread, gents. Is there more?
Salv
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There's a lot more - we've only covered the first six months of the war so far - but I don't seem to be able to find the time to add to the thread. When/if I get around to it my next post will be regarding the rebel campaign in the Basque country, including the infamous carpet bombing of Guernica by the Germans and Italians.
Dr Doran
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Salv said:
Bueno.
Cobblers
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Wow!
I'm still a newbie at Fedora Lounge and as such have been mining away at past threads to get not just a feel for the place but also some vital information on threads(As in tailor made).
Then I happened across this thread.....
What a pleasant suprise.. Kind of like how a history lesson should be. As an ex-member of the UK branch of the CNT/IWA (Now a wobbly) I've more than a passing interest in the SCW and there has been some incredibly insightful stuff,.
It's a shame there's the occaisional red-bashing hick but hey, that's life.
Salv and Sierra Charriba, please continue, I'm all ears...
I'm still a newbie at Fedora Lounge and as such have been mining away at past threads to get not just a feel for the place but also some vital information on threads(As in tailor made).
Then I happened across this thread.....
What a pleasant suprise.. Kind of like how a history lesson should be. As an ex-member of the UK branch of the CNT/IWA (Now a wobbly) I've more than a passing interest in the SCW and there has been some incredibly insightful stuff,.
It's a shame there's the occaisional red-bashing hick but hey, that's life.
Salv and Sierra Charriba, please continue, I'm all ears...
Dr Doran
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Cobblers said:
Let us hope that you do not believe that all persons with serious disagreements with socialism or communism are hicks. I am no hick.
Cobblers
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Not at all, I despise communism.... I have disagreements with socialism but if we look deep enough it's all fallible.
I guess in the UK that 'hick' is a generic term for people who read the Daily Mail or form opinions with fingers in ears.
I guess in the UK that 'hick' is a generic term for people who read the Daily Mail or form opinions with fingers in ears.
Salv
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Gentlemen - I'd like to point out that this thread was closed for a while after certain posters insisted on starting discussions about current Spanish politics. I was guilty of responding to those posts and thereby continuing those discussions, but because of the ban on politics in the FL the thread was temporarily closed. I'd hate for the thread to get closed down again due to any perceived personal attacks.
Doran - you haven't been red-bashing on this thread, or anywhere else as far as I'm aware, so I would be very surprised if Cobblers' comment was aimed at you.
Cobblers - The moderators come down quickly on personal insults, so "ill-informed red-bashers" would have been a more appropriate description I think. I have tried on numerous occasions to point out that the Republic wasn't a Communist regime, but people believe what they want to believe.
I have a couple of late shifts coming up - if they are quiet I'll try to get started on a post about the Basque campaign. But I'm not promising anything...
Doran - you haven't been red-bashing on this thread, or anywhere else as far as I'm aware, so I would be very surprised if Cobblers' comment was aimed at you.
Cobblers - The moderators come down quickly on personal insults, so "ill-informed red-bashers" would have been a more appropriate description I think. I have tried on numerous occasions to point out that the Republic wasn't a Communist regime, but people believe what they want to believe.
I have a couple of late shifts coming up - if they are quiet I'll try to get started on a post about the Basque campaign. But I'm not promising anything...
Cobblers
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Apologies for that, I had hoped it would be taken with a humorous bent nevertheless I will edit appropriately.
Please do continue though....
Please do continue though....
I just found this thread tonight and quite by coincidence I just started reading "Homage to Catalonia" about two days ago.
All the info on here looks very comprehensive (and controversial). Thanks to all of you for contributing! I'm utterly fascinated with the subject!
All the info on here looks very comprehensive (and controversial). Thanks to all of you for contributing! I'm utterly fascinated with the subject!
Doctors have removed a bullet from an 88-year-old man who was shot 70 years ago in the Spanish Civil War.
Faustino Olivera spent most of his life unaware of the bullet lodged in his left shoulder blade.
He was shot with a rifle on Nov. 11, 1938 while fighting for the Nationalist forces of Gen. Francisco Franco in northern Huesca province.
Doctors operated on him then but found no bullet.
But now, he can proudly hold the rusty, deformed bit of metal - the tip is curved and pointy like the boot of an elf - after it has finally been removed.
"I had my suspicions because there was only one hole, the entry wound, but no exit wound," Olivera told a Spanish newspaper.
"I knew I had been wounded."
Two years ago Olivera saw a doctor because of sharp pains in his left side.
X-rays finally detected the bullet - which was causing an infection and inflammation, and giving him pain.
Doctors initially decided to leave the bullet in his body because it was close to an artery.
But last Wednesday Olivera was rushed to a hospital in the town of Barbastro because he had a huge bulge - "the size of a head," according to his nephew Angel Betes - on his left side and doctors delicately extracted the bullet once and for all.
Olivera said he has given the bullet to his nephew as a souvenir.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...article_id=513926&in_page_id=1770&ito=newsnow
Faustino Olivera spent most of his life unaware of the bullet lodged in his left shoulder blade.
He was shot with a rifle on Nov. 11, 1938 while fighting for the Nationalist forces of Gen. Francisco Franco in northern Huesca province.
Doctors operated on him then but found no bullet.
But now, he can proudly hold the rusty, deformed bit of metal - the tip is curved and pointy like the boot of an elf - after it has finally been removed.
"I had my suspicions because there was only one hole, the entry wound, but no exit wound," Olivera told a Spanish newspaper.
"I knew I had been wounded."
Two years ago Olivera saw a doctor because of sharp pains in his left side.
X-rays finally detected the bullet - which was causing an infection and inflammation, and giving him pain.
Doctors initially decided to leave the bullet in his body because it was close to an artery.
But last Wednesday Olivera was rushed to a hospital in the town of Barbastro because he had a huge bulge - "the size of a head," according to his nephew Angel Betes - on his left side and doctors delicately extracted the bullet once and for all.
Olivera said he has given the bullet to his nephew as a souvenir.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...article_id=513926&in_page_id=1770&ito=newsnow
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