Today's Pinup Fashion a Sly Wink to the Past - New York Times

[Chasseur]

I face paint at children's parties, and the saddest/most annoying aspect I encounter is the vulgar trendy club music that's played. 5,6,7 year old girls dressed like twenty-something club hoppers and singing along because they know the words to all the songs.

I take my 3 year old son out to the park or the library each weekend. Often in the couple of parks we go to there are large familly parties and similar to your example people play (what I think is) some pretty innapropriate music for their kid's party. Makes me wonder...

 

[C-dot]

I take my 3 year old son out to the park or the library each weekend. Often in the couple of parks we go to there are large familly parties and similar to your example people play (what I think is) some pretty innapropriate music for their kid's party. Makes me wonder...

Well why not, when even Hollywood - childrens' greatest influence - is doing it, too? I went to the movie theatre not long ago and during a preview for another one of those animated kids' films (can't recall which), Sexy and I Know it by LMFAO was playing, and credited as featured in the movie. A sample of the lyrics:

When I walk in the spot, this is what I see/Everybody stops and they staring at me/I got passion in my pants and I ain't afraid to show it/I'm sexy and I know it/Girl look at that body (I work out)

Yes, very appropriate.

 

[sheeplady]

Well why not, when even Hollywood - childrens' greatest influence - is doing it, too? I went to the movie theatre not long ago and during a preview for another one of those animated kids' films (can't recall which), Sexy and I Know it by LMFAO was playing, and credited as featured in the movie. A sample of the lyrics:

When I walk in the spot, this is what I see/Everybody stops and they staring at me/I got passion in my pants and I ain't afraid to show it/I'm sexy and I know it/Girl look at that body (I work out)

Yes, very appropriate.

Sadly, that song is almost pure as snow compared to some of the songs out there.

 

[Feraud]

A lot of very smart women in recent years have been conned into being willing participants in their own degradation.

Not to mention otherwise intelligent women who are mothers and a terrible influence on how their daughers present themselves in public.
This was driven home last weekend when we attended my son's high school graduation.
The young men were dress in suits that gave a smart and professional impression.
As for the young ladies.. the majority looked awful. I could not understand how their parents allow them to leave the house looking like street walkers. Skintight miniskirts with breasts falling out and teetering on hooker heels.
Is this how parents define dressed up for their daughters? What shockingly low standards we have for young ladies.

Edited to add - What was odd was these same young ladies looked absolutely lovely in their prom outfits from a few weeks back. I'm not sure what the thought process is for determining prom versus graduation style.

 

[C-dot]

Is this how parents define dressed up for their daughters? What shockingly low standards we have for young ladies.

Edited to add - What was odd was these same young ladies looked absolutely lovely in their prom outfits from a few weeks back. I'm not sure what the thought process is for determining prom versus graduation style.

At my prom, most of the girls pushed it as far as the law permitted (this was Catholic school) with their revealing dresses, and their graduation outfits weren't much better. Convocation in college was a bit improved, but quite a few of my contemporaries had me shaking my head with the outfits they elected to wear to court and job interviews. Part of me wondered if they didn't think their talent or education was enough to impress a prospective employer...

As for me, I was conditioned from a very early age to always be appropriate; Every time my mother and I would pass a girl who was leaving little to be imagined, she would intone "I will slap you if you ever dress like that!" Now, my mother was not the hittin' kind, but the lesson was instilled nonetheless.

 

[Undertow]

Just happened to find another article this morning. One more example of the "male gaze" in action.

Not Everyone Is Amused By ASUS' Ogling Of Booth Model's Butt

I get that they were trying to be clever and a little cheeky...er, forgive the pun. But you can see that someone, somewhere in this professional company thinks it's hilarious to snap pictures and make comments about one of their employee's rears. Is it a male employee? Of course not - don't want to push the "gay agenda". Of course, there's nothing wrong with treating the lady in the picture like a cow at auction.

When messages like this permeate popular culture and become the normal dialogue, there's a problem with how we envision the opposite gender; i.e. men as greedy wolves, women as pinned-up play things. Therein lies the issue at the heart of the problem discussed in posts passed.

 

[jamespowers]

Just happened to find another article this morning. One more example of the "male gaze" in action.

Not Everyone Is Amused By ASUS' Ogling Of Booth Model's Butt

I get that they were trying to be clever and a little cheeky...er, forgive the pun. But you can see that someone, somewhere in this professional company thinks it's hilarious to snap pictures and make comments about one of their employee's rears. Is it a male employee? Of course not - don't want to push the "gay agenda". Of course, there's nothing wrong with treating the lady in the picture like a cow at auction.

When messages like this permeate popular culture and become the normal dialogue, there's a problem with how we envision the opposite gender; i.e. men as greedy wolves, women as pinned-up play things. Therein lies the issue at the heart of the problem discussed in posts passed.

In large part, women are the keepers of standards and civility in society. If they have complaints then they need to take a more active role in getting society to change. Clearly they are not in many of the examples given. Letting their daughters dress like less than reputable women belies a problem with upbringing that has led us here. Parents seem to want to be their children's best friend nowadays. You can be a friend and a parent because you cannot stick up for inappropriate behavior. It bears correcting.
Men will follow wherever they are led. They are being led to believe this is alright from many in thie generation or they wouldn't get away with it as much as they do. Elivs had a song about this:

"I’ll be as strong as a mountain,
Or weak as a willow tree,
Anyway you want me,
Well that’s how I will be.

I’ll be as tame as a baby,
Or wild as the raging sea,
Anyway you want me,
Well that’s how I will be.

In your hands my heart is clay,
To take and hold as you may.
I’m what you make me, you’ve only to take me,
And in your arms I will stay.

I’ll be a fool or a wise man,
My darling you hold the key,
Yes, anyway you want me,
Well that’s how I will be,
I will be."

We need more wisemen and less raging seas ladies.

 

[C-dot]

When messages like this permeate popular culture and become the normal dialogue, there's a problem with how we envision the opposite gender; i.e. men as greedy wolves, women as pinned-up play things. Therein lies the issue at the heart of the problem discussed in posts passed.

Reminds me of this: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/26/offensive-vodka-ad-causes-uproar-after-going-viral/

The fact that this company actually thought it was okay is more sickening than the ad itself.

Men will follow wherever they are led. They are being led to believe this is alright from many in thie generation or they wouldn't get away with it as much as they do

I tend to agree. With all the mixed messages out there, its no wonder we have such mixed responses.

 

[jamespowers]

Men will follow wherever they are led. They are being led to believe this is alright from many in this generation or they wouldn't get away with it as much as they do[/.QUOTE]

I tend to agree. With all the mixed messages out there, its no wonder we have such mixed responses.

I am waiting for women to say enough but it just keeps getting worse. It is kind of demeaning really. I am sure there are women out there that are appalled at such behavior but somehow we see so many of the opposite behaviors out there. I hate to say it but many men usually go the easiest route if given the chance.
Women used to demand doors being opened for them, being picked up and dropped off at their doorstep and treated with respect. Somehow this has all gone on its head over the last 50-60 years. :eusa_doh:

 

[LizzieMaine]

I said "enough" in 1975. I'm still waiting for the rest of society to catch up.

 

[AmateisGal]

A look at my 18-year-old stepson's Facebook page was enough to make me nauseous. While I know I raised him better than that the years I had him (before he went to live with his mom), I was absolutely appalled at the girls' language and the photographs with their clear-down-to-there cleavage shots they post. The F word is just another word now, and both sexes use it equally well. I was also extremely upset that apparently saying the 'n' word - a racial slur - only shortened without the 'er and just with an 'a' - is not only allowed, but common, as well, even by his African-American friends.

What the HECK is going on? I've talked to him about it. His dad has talked to him. Heck, even my older brother (who is also his boss) has told him that speaking that way makes him look like an idiot.

I know not all teenagers speak this way - but to see it so blatantly in your face like that, on a social network site, no less, just depressed me to no end.

 

[AmateisGal]

I am waiting for women to say enough but it just keeps getting worse. It is kind of demeaning really. I am sure there are women out there that are appalled at such behavior but somehow we see so many of the opposite behaviors out there. I hate to say it but many men usually go the easiest route if given the chance.
Women used to demand doors being opened for them, being picked up and dropped off at their doorstep and treated with respect. Somehow this has all gone on its head over the last 50-60 years. :eusa_doh:

I know I am very flattered when a man opens the door for me. My husband opens my car door for me all the time.

 

[jamespowers]

I know I am very flattered when a man opens the door for me. My husband opens my car door for me all the time.

I am glad it is that way back there. Out here you get looked at like you are insulting them. Once in a while a get a younger one to say thank you---once in a while. The older ladies are still ladies though and say thank you.

 

[jamespowers]

I said "enough" in 1975. I'm still waiting for the rest of society to catch up.

Somehow I think they overruled you then.:eusa_doh: By 1975 it was too late anyway. It started about ten years earlier---out here anyway.[huh]

 

[Edward]

Course, forbidden fruit syndrome will always be with us.

Somebody once said "you can point to any item in the Sears catalogue, and somebody, somewhere wants to sleep with it." I don't think there's anything anyone can do about that, really, and if somebody has an unnatural attachment to a garden hose or a socket wrench, that's their own business. As long as I don't have to hear about it, knock yourself out.

Absolutely. The longer I have to wait around for the sweet embrace of death, the more utterly convinced I become that there are many, many things of far more import in the world than what consenting adults choose to do with and to each other on their own time, and where it's none of my damn business.

*Would* pinuppery exist *without* the "male gaze?" *Could* it? That's a question worth thinking very hard about.

Nowadays, emphatically yes, but given the time period in which it originated and the nature of society back then, I highly doubt it.

I do know that from a discussion with a trans woman I know, that it is very difficult to adjust to the "male gaze" and the attention you get as a female, having previously spent life as a male. I think it is something that women are socialized to expect a certain amount of, and I think it's just something that we're used to. It doesn't mean we like it. (I'm referring less to the cat calling aspect and more to the looking aspect.)

Although having traveled in some places where men lstaring at women is more socially acceptable does bring it totally to the surface of your awareness even if you've been a female your entire life.

Absolutely. One big reason why the noveau burlesque scene is so very different from a mainstream strip club, imo, is down to the nature of the audience, where heterosexual men (let alone those there purely to perv) are decidedly in the minority. At least here in the UK, anyhow. It is much more pronounced with men looking at women than vice versa in our culture and in my experience. Part of this has to do with cultural programming, I suppose. It's also true that even in the mainstream stripclub world, men and women are very different audiences: for the men, it is very much a sex thing - women seem to react to it as all very much a laugh. That's the impression I get from the outside, anyhow.

I know this is way off topic, but I often wonder at people's reaction to torture. Torture is torture, regardless of why it's perpetuated, against whom it's perpetuated, or by whom it's perpetuated. Torturing one man to save a thousand is still torture, and it's still sickening.

Yet, I bring this up in conversation often (it's a current topic, after all), and I'm always a bit surprised to see peoples' eyes light up when they describe the necessity to torture another human being.

I think dehuminzation has run rampant in this country, and I can only hope the pendulum swings back sooner than later.

As a lawyer, there is little as depressing in our contemporary society as the mindlessness with which people in general approach the legal system, the complete contempt for such noble ideals as "innocent until proven guilty", and rehabilitation.

I think dehumanization goes hand in hand with the modern culture of Ironic Detachment. When nothing in life is sincere, when everything is put between quotation marks, why *care* about anything?

In part, yes.

Excellent book. After reading it, I recommend taking a long, slow walk thru the "Girls' Toys" department at your local Wal Mart, and thinking long and hard about how far we pretend we've come.

Kid's toys are unbelievably gender normative (not to mention heteronormative) from what I can see.

I face paint at children's parties, and the saddest/most annoying aspect I encounter is the vulgar trendy club music that's played. 5,6,7 year old girls dressed like twenty-something club hoppers and singing along because they know the words to all the songs.

There is a popular school of thought which suggests that it all goes over their heads so it doesn't matter. I've never been convinced of this - I don't think kids are as lacking in perceptiveness as many seem to believe. They may not fully comprehend what they are seeing/ hearing, but it all goes in.

 

[Undertow]

A look at my 18-year-old stepson's Facebook page was enough to make me nauseous...

On one hand, I think we are evolving as a society - right or wrong, good or bad. I think certain words are losing validity, others are losing meaning, while others like "please" and "thank you" are losing relevancy. This is a transitional period and for better or worse, the old ways are becoming shadows.

My question is, "What are we losing as a result?" It's neither right or wrong if women now identify themselves as playthings for men - if that's really the way it is, then it's just a fact of life. But what have we all lost as a society? I'd say if we are really at a place like that, we are in a lot of trouble.

Same goes for language - when using the "N" word becomes okay, or even remotely acceptable, we should ask ourselves what we've lost. So many people fought so hard to make that word invalid and here our youth think it's funny. Maybe that's okay. I don't think so, but again, seems like the old ways are becoming shadows and folks like us are more or less disappearing.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think the problem is too many people really don't think it's a matter of right or wrong -- we've become such utter moral relativists, that we're afraid we'll offend someone if we say, no, it really *is* wrong to encourage young girls to fan their backsides and to encourage young boys to think that's what girls are for. People today have this bizarre belief that if you're a tolerant person, you have to be tolerant in all areas, of everything and anything, without exception and without drawing any moral lines -- which is ridiculous. My respecting the rights and the privacy of that nice gay couple down the street doesn't mean I have to respect the rights of corporations to sell worthless values to a hoodwinked public. We wanted a judgement-free society -- well, now we've got one. Nice, innit?

I don't have the slightest illusion that this trend will ever be reversed. We've skidded too far down the slope, and I don't expect any of us can do anything toward changing it on a mass scale. All we can do is dig in all the deeper as individuals -- we may be washed over by the tide, but we don't have to be swept along with it.

 

[AmateisGal]

I agree with you 100% on the moral relativism aspect, Lizzie. Heck, I agree with all of what you said. I think that is what is at the heart of all this, and as a parent, it makes me more determined than ever to raise my daughter WITH a good, solid sense of morality - and it will be the morality I was raised with, and not this new fangled version put forth by society nowadays.

 

[jamespowers]

I agree with you 100% on the moral relativism aspect, Lizzie. Heck, I agree with all of what you said. I think that is what is at the heart of all this, and as a parent, it makes me more determined than ever to raise my daughter WITH a good, solid sense of morality - and it will be the morality I was raised with, and not this new fangled version put forth by society nowadays.

:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap Changing the world one child at a time.

 

[AmateisGal]

Thanks.