Today's Pinup Fashion a Sly Wink to the Past - New York Times

[Feraud]

Not to mention the same culture that fools women into thinking this behavior is somehow "empowering".

 

[Juliet]

Exactly. My main concern is less what other people are wearing than what it is about the culture we live in that makes them want to wear it. And that's what we've been talking about here.

(And for what it's worth, my main reaction when I see someone going around in one of those ridiculous butt-floss bikinis is "how do they keep the sand out?")

I'd say, the modern culture does not make you want to wear it, it makes you feel inadequate if you don't wear it, and that's what I dislike. If a girl (heck, if a guy) wants to wear those, why not? It's their choice. It's also their choice NOT to wear it and that's where the problem starts.

I'd also like to say something about the "vintage-dressing ladies slamming the pin-up styled girls". Of course, I can only speak for myself, not knowing any of the Lounge ladies personally, but I'm fairly confident in stating - we, or at least the majority here, don't judge the pin-up, the burlesque or the stripper girls. That's not what we're trying to say. It's the overly sexualized culture and mass media (as it almost grows into an independent culture, far away from the people on Earth) that we have a problem with. Especially, since there are a lot of women in charge, who know darn well how it feels to be objectified (Lord, I hate that stupid word. It can never describe the experience itself.), and they still push that same message.
I don't mean to come across as a raving feminist. I don't even think I could be considered a proper modern feminist, as I think that every person should accept their own responsibility, and even that seems old-fashioned now. But I feel that it's not right for people to just shrug at the current cultural message, and state that girls (pre-teens and teens especially) are just dumb for buying it. It is a pressure. A lot of girls succumb to it because they a) don't know any better, b) they don't have sufficient positive reinforcement/guidance at home. A lot of guys succumb to it, too - treating generally all women as trash, unless that particular woman happens to be in a position of power way above him.
I guess, a lot of parents could be faulted, too - for not explaining to their offspring, that the world does not actually work the way MTV music clips do.
Again, I'm sorry if I'm offending any sensibilities here, I'm not against men, strippers, prostitutes or condoms.

 

[AmateisGal]

I think you make some excellent points, Juliet. :eusa_clap

 

[rene_writer]

I'd say, the modern culture does not make you want to wear it, it makes you feel inadequate if you don't wear it

So true! I remember refusing to go to the water park field trip and the pool parties in middle school because some girls the year before had shown up in one-pieces and they were still being made fun of for it. By the same token, there was no way I was going in a bikini. I developed early (still the same size today as when I was 9 years old) so I knew I would be made fun of for being 'fat'. I figured I had enough problems, so I magically got sick every time.

How sad is that? I was only fourteen and I could not go and enjoy the waterpark for goodness sake! A quarter of the girls skipped out.

 

[Aerojoe]

So, you're saying that's not classy? Damn.... there goes my grocery shopping outfit :eusa_doh:

and where is this grocery store of yours?

Actually, if you have a problem with that, you shouldn't go to the beach because a lot of modern bikinis have far less fabric than that. So are women who wear bikinis not classy?

In Europe, at least here in the south, most of women do topless at the beach. The allegedly "pin up" of the first post, would look like a nun if she went to sunbath in those clothes.

For God's sake, all this thread is because this girl;

...and we are talking about prostitution, striptease clubs, drug addictions, alcoholism, the low livings, self sex-objectification. Even poor Jenna Jameson was brought into this. She deserves better!

Could we be a little less presbyterian, what ever that means?

 

[William Stratford]

I'd say, the modern culture does not make you want to wear it, it makes you feel inadequate if you don't wear it, and that's what I dislike. If a girl (heck, if a guy) wants to wear those, why not? It's their choice. It's also their choice NOT to wear it and that's where the problem starts.

The catch is that "choice" is not the be all and end all of right and wrong. We used to have something called "Decency", a concept of morality that went beyond the individual's choice, but increasingly it is all about the "hippy ethic" ("do your own thing" & "let it all hang out").

I don't mean to come across as a raving feminist. I don't even think I could be considered a proper modern feminist, as I think that every person should accept their own responsibility, and even that seems old-fashioned now. But I feel that it's not right for people to just shrug at the current cultural message, and state that girls (pre-teens and teens especially) are just dumb for buying it. It is a pressure. A lot of girls succumb to it because they a) don't know any better, b) they don't have sufficient positive reinforcement/guidance at home.

It is both of the factors that you mention. The society into which we are born plays an enormous part in how we are (or are not) socialised, whilst at the same time there is a significant element of personal responsibility as well. Some people place too much emphasis on the former, and lack a corresponding requirement that people take responsibility for their actions rather than finding some excuse to hide. Others place too much emphasis on the latter, and are not tempered with a compassion for people born into a situation that is both corrupting and hard to avoid/ignore/not go along with.

 

[AmateisGal]

...and we are talking about prostitution, striptease clubs, drug addictions, alcoholism, the low livings, self sex-objectification. Even poor Jenna Jameson was brought into this. She deserves better!

Could we be a little less presbyterian, what ever that means?

I don't see anything wrong with the turn this conversation took. These are good questions to ask. Conversations usually do tend to veer off in different directions.

 

[AmateisGal]

William, you make a good point about decency and the like. I think postmodernism has something to do with it, i.e. "what is decent for you may not be decent for me." There is no absolute truth anymore.

 

[Feraud]

In Europe, at least here in the south, most of women do topless at the beach. The allegedly "pin up" of the first post, would look like a nun if she went to sunbath in those clothes.

For God's sake, all this thread is because this girl;

...and we are talking about prostitution, striptease clubs, drug addictions, alcoholism, the low livings, self sex-objectification. Even poor Jenna Jameson was brought into this. She deserves better!

Could we be a little less presbyterian, what ever that means?

Using modern standards of ethics and morals is an extremely broken yardstick to measure appropriate forms of dress. Saying "they do it in ____ " cannot sound any less like a reasonable justification for behavior.

As LizzieMaine noted at the beginning of this discussion (which I encourage everyone to read and re-read..), there is an issue with a society that fails to allow the questioning of such behavior and comments as noted in the original article.

Why is it that a woman commenting that porn is now classy doesn't raise as much of an eyebrow as the questioning of the validity of that comment? Therein lies the real problem..

 

[AmateisGal]

Why is it that a woman commenting that porn is now classy doesn't raise as much of an eyebrow as the questioning of the validity of that comment? Therein lies the real problem..

Exactly.

 

[Aerojoe]

Why is it that a woman commenting that porn is now classy doesn't raise as much of an eyebrow as the questioning of the validity of that comment? Therein lies the real problem..

By porn do you mean Betty Page's bikini? or am I missing the porn? sorry, the point omg

If I was Mrs Clifford, and I was reading this, I would be offended. I'm not telling you what I'd do if I was Jenna Jameson.

 

[Feraud]

Porn as quoted by the subject of the article-

“I know that back in the ’50s, her images were porno material, but they’re classy now,” Ms. Clifford said.

I wouldn't let Miss Clifford or Jenna Jameson determine the moral compass of society.
That is letting the lunatics run the asylum.

 

[William Stratford]

I wouldn't let Miss Clifford or Jenna Jameson determine the moral compass of society.
That is letting the lunatics run the asylum.

Spot on.

 

[AmateisGal]

What bothers me is that there IS no moral compass of society anymore.

 

[Aerojoe]

Porn as quoted by the subject of the article-

“I know that back in the ’50s, her images were porno material, but they’re classy now,” Ms. Clifford said.

She is trying to say that back in the 50s Betty Page's pictures were considered so hard, that it was called "porno".

However a bikini never was "porno" and Betty Page never was a "porn actress".

I wouldn't let Miss Clifford or Jenna Jameson determine the moral compass of society.
That is letting the lunatics run the asylum.

I don't think Miss Clifford or Jenna Jameson intended to determine the moral compass of anybody. But, anyway, I wouldn't let anybody to determine my own moral whatsoever.

 

[Flicka]

...and we are talking about prostitution, striptease clubs, drug addictions, alcoholism, the low livings, self sex-objectification. Even poor Jenna Jameson was brought into this. She deserves better!

Could we be a little less presbyterian, what ever that means?

I have no idea what you mean by Presbyterian, but your post seems to imply that the message you are trying to send is that 1) you think we are prudes 2) you don't think we may discuss wider topics such as society, sex and prostitution in this thread.

As regards 1) you are wrong and I must have phrased myself very poorly if that's how my posts come through. I have been called many things but never that (and FWIW, I'm Catholic not Presbyterian). As for 2), well, maybe we drifted but since no moderators stepped in I assumed that was OK.

 

[William Stratford]

What bothers me is that there IS no moral compass of society anymore.

Indeed. Pretty much everything now is reduced to a "lifestyle choice" where amongst the worst things that you can do is tell someone "No!". Society today is all about the individual and their appetite; me me me me me. It's what I detest about the post-war age - whether you look at the hippies or the way business itself went, it all became about the individual and their consumption.

I wouldn't let anybody to determine my own moral whatsoever.

Do you not think that such a stance is part of the problem - "I'm going to do it my way and stuff what anyone else tells me"? The same hippie value of "do your own thing". We'd be a damn site better off if we stopped thinking our grandparents were idiots, monsters or irrelevent.

 

[LizzieMaine]

We have a long, long history in the Lounge of using incidents in the lifestyle press as jumping-off points for discussion of broader social issues, from whatever perspectives our members care to bring to the discussion -- and the very inclination of the Lounge as "custodians of the culture pf the Greatest Generation" should lead one to expect that some of us will have views that are at odds with various aspects of modern society. If one would prefer not to discuss such matters, it's as easy as not clicking on the thread.

Besides, I'm not Presbyterian either. I'm a lapsed Methodist, although some of my best friends are Presbyterian.

Was Betty a "Porn Actress" in her time? Well, considering the fact that her main publisher, Irving Klaw, was put out of business as a result of legal pressure resulting from morals investigations, it's probably safe to say that by the standards of the 1950's she was. For what purpose besides appealing to prurient interests were fetish and bondage photos taken?

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Indeed. Pretty much everything now is reduced to a "lifestyle choice" where amongst the worst things that you can do is tell someone "No!". Society today is all about the individual and their appetite; me me me me me. It's what I detest about the post-war age - whether you look at the hippies or the way business itself went, it all became about the individual and their consumption.

Do you not think that such a stance is part of the problem - "I'm going to do it my way and stuff what anyone else tells me"? The same hippie value of "do your own thing". We'd be a damn site better off if we stopped thinking our grandparents were idiots, monsters or irrelevent.

Spot on! In a nutshell, it should be noted that the Flower Children of the '60s merely morphed into the Me Generation of the '70s which in turn evolved into the Yuppies of the '80s and their "Greed is Good" ethic. In actuality nothing more than "hippies with money" to quote Andy Griffith in the movie Pray for Wildcats.

 

[Edward]

yes, this thread seems to be suggesting that young women who take inspiration from pin-up icons of the past for their every day style are part of the same problematic modern group who text semi-pornographic images of themselves to their friends, and who's sex-lives are informed by modern porn-culture when no such evidence exists. most young vintage-wearing ladies would be repulsed by other modern standards / conventions of 'sexiness'. the attempt to conflate two different ends of the cultural taste spectrum strikes me as woefully confused.

You say hippy, I say capitalist..... but hey, another chance for us all to howl about how the modern world is going to hell in a handcart and wasn't the past so superior, how can we possibly go wrong?

ok, so a woman dressing in an overtly sexual way is fine. at what point does she become complicit in her own 'objectification' ?

Noeasy answer to that one is there? Too far one way, though, and it does get perilously close to "she was asking for it the way she dressed".