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What are the makers that DO NOT 'skiv their leather or use glue'?

zebedee

One Too Many
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1,605
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Shanghai
I wouldn't agree with that. I can show you my photos of me in both low and high rise jeans when I was fat. High rise was massively better.

The gut will ruin just about any and all fits and cuts in my case. For those like me who find it hard to maintain a 34 inch waist and have short legs, a tailor is just about the only way to go :) The only thing that ever worked was a keto diet for months on end and little to no alcohol. I fit into everything then, but I live in the land of rice, noodles, oil, salt and happy hour.
 

Rich22

Practically Family
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550
Location
G.B.
The body shape required to wear high-rise trousers seems to be tall and thin, but mainly thin - I don't think I could wear them as the waist would probably 'bucket' in the front. To me, they make men look pigeon-chested and the torso in general too short. As someone with a longish torso and fairly short legs (29 inch inside leg), high-waisted trousers would be Marioland.
Same here- I can't wear high rise jeans. My inside leg (31) is short next to my height, and combined with a big ass, I get the diaper effect, where there's soo much material in the front. The jeans I wear are Levi's 541s, which have the same height in the rear as high rise jeans, but a regular 11inch front rise, which is much more flattering.

I also dislike "elongated" jackets, and wouldn't want a jacket resting on my butt- it's ideal if the jacket just covers the belt, and is snug on my hips.
 

Canuck Panda

Call Me a Cab
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2,308
Same here- I can't wear high rise jeans. My inside leg (31) is short next to my height, and combined with a big ass, I get the diaper effect, where there's soo much material in the front. The jeans I wear are Levi's 541s, which have the same height in the rear as high rise jeans, but a regular 11inch front rise, which is much more flattering.

I also dislike "elongated" jackets, and wouldn't want a jacket resting on my butt- it's ideal if the jacket just covers the belt, and is snug on my hips.

Diaper effect! First there was scrotum grain now diaper effect. I got both!
It always starts off nice and crispy in the morning but by mid day it always turns into the crapper. Darker pants helps but not much.
Maybe it's time for me to consider butt implants. JK.

diaper.jpg

diaper 2.jpg
 

JMax

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,359
Diaper effect! First there was scrotum grain now diaper effect. I got both!
It always starts off nice and crispy in the morning but by mid day it always turns into the crapper. Darker pants helps but not much.
Maybe it's time for me to consider butt implants. JK.

View attachment 394666
View attachment 394667

TFL- where grown men ask other grown men to examine their cracks. Who knew?

I probably didn’t give it the examination it deserves, but I’d go with the darker pants my man. And maybe check out buns of steel 1 thru 36. Lol.
 

zebedee

One Too Many
Messages
1,605
Location
Shanghai
Same here- I can't wear high rise jeans. My inside leg (31) is short next to my height, and combined with a big ass, I get the diaper effect, where there's soo much material in the front. The jeans I wear are Levi's 541s, which have the same height in the rear as high rise jeans, but a regular 11inch front rise, which is much more flattering.

I also dislike "elongated" jackets, and wouldn't want a jacket resting on my butt- it's ideal if the jacket just covers the belt, and is snug on my hips.

I reckon that all my body's seams are both glued and skived.
 

Blackadder

My Mail is Forwarded Here
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3,554
Location
China
The body shape required to wear high-rise trousers seems to be tall and thin, but mainly thin - I don't think I could wear them as the waist would probably 'bucket' in the front. To me, they make men look pigeon-chested and the torso in general too short. As someone with a longish torso and fairly short legs (29 inch inside leg), high-waisted trousers would be Marioland.
I am about 5'6. I had to wear size 36 jeans before I have gone down to 31 (now back to 33 due to covid). I used to wear only boot cut jeans like Levi's 517. The straight boot cut and mid rise makes my legs look longer and slimmer. Now I wear simple mid or high rise straight but still avoid low waist jeans because I don't usually wear a belt.
That is not to say I don't agree with you about the Mario effect with loose high rise pants but I think the low rise tapered jeans that have been the norm for until two years ago is also not suited for short people. As a short person I would still pick mid-high rise to low rise pants because mid-high rise makes my legs look longer.
 

Worf

I'll Lock Up
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5,023
Location
Troy, New York, USA
I must say that this thread is why I love this place. I've learned a lot in this one and been thoroughly entertained. I've several Aero's, an AL, Langlitz, a Vanson or two... most of the majors save LW (not man enough I suppose). Some fit perfectly (my used HWM in steerhide) and some do not (my Aero A1 still pinches in the shoulder and took 3 resizes to get it right). I didn't know anything about glue or shiving till I read this thread. Simple thing is either it looks and feels "right" or it doesn't. I don't own a but a couple of CXL offerings mostly been gettin' Vicenza since I don't ride. Mostly, I'm happy with my Aero's.

Worf
 

Rubezahl

New in Town
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17
Location
U.S.A.
Dude, not trying to start a beef here, but as I read this paragraph it occurred to me that you yourself talk almost entirely about Japanese jackets as well. Therefore I am not terribly surprised that your conversation went in that direction with Ken.
Edit: I wanted to add that I am not doubting your account and I think it is poor form when one maker badmouths another to make themselves look or feel better.
I used to email back and forth with Ken a few years ago and he almost immediately started in on SB, when I stopped conversing with him, SB got a lot of business from me.
 

Rubezahl

New in Town
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17
Location
U.S.A.
Hello

I was wondering if you guys have any info on the makers that do not skiv their leather or use glue when making a jacket.

I know skiving or using glue doesn't mean they are inferior in quality but it's just my personal preference.

And I think I read somewhere that using glue makes it harder to repair the jacket.

Thank you for you help
Simmons Bilt asks my permission to skive and only if the hide is unusually thick, so I don't think they do so normally.
 

El Marro

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3,151
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California
I used to email back and forth with Ken a few years ago and he almost immediately started in on SB, when I stopped conversing with him, SB got a lot of business from me.
Well I can understand why Ken might have a thing or two to say about SB. I can also understand why that is probably not the best thing for him to focus on when dealing with potential customers.
 

JMax

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,359
That's interesting, didn't know that. It is refreshing that they do not brag about it :)

SB seems to focus on making jackets as opposed to complaining about the competition.

I really liked the two SB I have owned. But in fairness, I bet SB would complain if JMax’s Prestige Worldwide Leathers did to them what they did to Aero.

I get that the time and place of complaining can be like poking your own eye. And how the complaining is done also matters. My take, if the customer asks or references SB somehow, I would calmly tell them the truth.
 

red devil

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3,577
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London
I really liked the two SB I have owned. But in fairness, I bet SB would complain if JMax’s Prestige Worldwide Leathers did to them what they did to Aero.

I get that the time and place of complaining can be like poking your own eye. And how the complaining is done also matters. My take, if the customer asks or references SB somehow, I would calmly tell them the truth.

Agreed, if it was explained in a calm manner as objectively as possible, it would have been better.
 

RedPanda

New in Town
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3
Location
France
Hello all,

I am new here and sorry for my bad english.
I have found your discussions interesting and decided to join it, just to share my own experience in the leather field.

I have been sewing leather as a hobby since about 2016 and have made several bags and belts so far; all hand-sewn (saddle stitch, veg tanned leather from 3 to 10 oz).
I sew clothes (mainly denim jackets) with an old Singer 191b.
The Singer 191b does sew thin leather quite well too.

So, back to the point of that discussion about skiving and gluing.

If you ever try to sew leather on your own, you will experience that it is by definition easier to keep the 2 pieces you want to sew together with glue and easier to be sure the sides are perfectly aligned, so it basically makes your life easier when sewing.
Nevertheless, the needle has little more resistance going through the material (back and forth).
And another drawback is that traces of glue may be visible and so you need to remove the visible part of it (with a crepe eraser).

And for sure, if you need to repair a damaged stitching, the glue won't help to separate the 2 parts and eventually it will end up tearing apart the leather.

About skiving, it is quite the same, it makes your life easier.
If you have to fold the leather, the thicker it is the more difficult it is to be folded, and with really thick leather it generates creases, eventually cracks with veg tanned leather and does not stay in place (that is why it is easier to skive and glue).
Hand skiving manually can be complicated, it takes time, needs razor sharp tools and it is difficult to have a perfectly neat result.
I can't imagine a leather jacket manufacturer doing it manually.
They do it using a machine.
Never experience it myself but by looking at demo videos it seems straightforward and quick.

And if you use a sewing machine to sew the parts, you have other issues.
First, it needs to go below your presser foot.
If it is too thick you just can't sew (that is why dedicated leather sewing machines can raise their presser feet higher).
So skiving can help with that.
Then, the machine needs to feed the material under the needle.
If you only have simple feed machines (basic ones, which are not really appropriate for the task indeed), gluing and skiving will be mandatory to manage thick leathers.
Otherwise the machine won't manage to pull the 2 parts the same way with the exact same movement.
So skiving and gluing facilitates feeding.
And...the presser foot is flat, and if you have a big bead because of the thickness of the leather, it is more complicated to sew, or you need to have a specialized presser foot or use wedges (which affects the feeding)

Then let's talk about the resistance; garments are stitched in a way that stitching is the weakest part of it.
If you look at saddlery and particularly well made bridles you will see that the stitchings are parallel to the 2 assembled parts (generally two parallel lines, one on each border).
It is essential to be resistant to tearing in that field.

That is why most of the belts you see with a perpendicular stitching (to the border) after the loop are not well built.
It is a weak point.

Then, the resistance is different between veg tanned leather and chromed tan leather.
Chromed tan leathers are more resistant to puncture and tearing (it is cheaper and more resistant, that is why is massively used by the industry)

And talking about the threads, polyester threads are far more resistant than cotton or linen threads (and they don't rot). There is a chance the leather will fall apart before the polyester thread.

So in conclusion, if you use polyester thread with a skived veg tanned leather under a certain thickness and small stitches, there is a risk that the thread will cut the leather if it is pulled perpendicularly to the stitching.
The risk is less important with chromed tanned leather but it exists.
And if you put glue everywhere, it will be more complicated to repair and will raise the risk of tearing apart the leather during the disassembling.
On the other hand, it does facilitate the stitching (but needs additional preparation steps) and gives a better neat look to the end result.

I would say it is about finding the balance between slightly stronger construction + better repairability VS the final look (& comfort as seams are more flexible).

I hope it helps
 

Canuck Panda

Call Me a Cab
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2,308
Great post RedPanda!

How about hammering? Does this process make the leather thinner and denser? I've noticed the some of my jacket seams (blind straight stitch first then fold then top stitched) "plump" up after a few wears. Would hammering somewhat replace skiving when the leather is thick but still not that thick? Thanks.
 

RedPanda

New in Town
Messages
3
Location
France
The density of the leather varies depending on several factors including the type of leather or the leather part (belly, shoulder, butt, ...).
For example, the belly part is much more pliable and elastic (with a lesser density indeed).
The overall tanning process and post treatment can lead from a soft leather to a hard leather with the same skin.

Using your hammer will crush and flatten the impact zone and it will help you to keep the leather at its place and sure it will make it denser if it is not already dense.
I am not surprised that at some point with some time and humidity it "plumps".

It may somehow replace skiving for soft thin leather but for semi-hard or hard leather, there is a risk of damaging the upper coat with tears as you force the material to move and its elasticity is not high enough. Anyway, if it is already pretty dense, it won't work a lot.

The risk is higher with veg tanned leather because it is less tear resistant but it is a little bit different as you can moisten the leather and then it is easier to shape it.
But to a certain limit.
And for sure, a seam where the leather is folded on itself is the extreme limit.

So if you are not skiving the leather you will need to have a little bit more leather to fold it on itself properly without tearing apart the leather.
And you will be forced to put the top-stitch seam a little bit more far away from the junction seam.
 

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