Women Dressing Like Men, Men Dressing like Children

[Naama]

You didn't mention it, but could this be the reason why female bisexuality (or Playboy-esque "lesbianism") is more "socially acceptable" than is male bisexuality? In other words, why do many men enjoy seeing women getting intimate with each other ... while far fewer women enjoy seeing men getting intimate?

Exactly! It's also that as a woman you can hold hands or kiss your female friends without having your sexuality in doubt but if you do that as a man you must be gay. I think man are so afraid of homosexuality because it's consideret unmanly.

Naama

 

[herringbonekid]

And, oddly, some of the "baby boys" are among the most macho.

that doesn't strike me as odd at all. i've always thought extreme macho behaviour looked infantile.

but i don't think that the curent trend for grown men dressing as boys necesserally comes down to a need for mothering. i'm sure some of them want a mother figure, but not ALL of them...i don't think its quite that simple. it has more to do with the extention of once adolescent interests and attitudes into near middle age. and our obsession with youth and looking youthful.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

it has more to do with the extention of once adolescent interests and attitudes into near middle age. and our obsession with youth and looking youthful.

Bingo!

We Loungers, on the other hand, are obsessed with the past and looking old-fashioned.

 

[Paisley]

Ironically, I think that dressing a lot younger than you are just makes you look older:

 

[Marc Chevalier]

:cheers1:

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Indeed,....

You didn't mention it, but could this be the reason why female bisexuality (or Playboy-esque "lesbianism") is more "socially acceptable" than is male bisexuality? In other words, why do many men enjoy seeing women getting intimate with each other ... while far fewer women enjoy seeing men getting intimate?

Why? As for me, I personally don't enjoy seeing women getting intimate together any more than I would enjoy seeing 2 men together! Women should be women, (and as a man I'm damm glad for those that are!) and men should be men. What could be easier and more natural than that?
I think the reason for this anomaly is the current massive influence that the media has on people and their social mores. We are bombarded by influences from television, movies, books, and magazines, that have progressively caused people to relax their standards. It's why I, and many others here I'm sure, feel rather out of place in this modern world, and we long to recapture the values from the past.

 

[LaMedicine]

I think the reason for this anomaly is the current massive influence that the media has on people and their social mores. We are bombarded by influences from television, movies, books, and magazines, that have progressively caused people to relax their standards.

If you go there, then I'd say there's also the argument about the influence of environmental hormones. Those chemicals released into our environment and accumilate, inducing effeminate changes in bugs, fish, primates, etc. Enough experiments have been going on to prove their danger. And, how some of our food stuff is treated/created with various chemicals and hormones to encourage growth.
What our the present society is, is complex, and becoming even more complex with the influx of the various values of the various cultures.

 

[K.D. Lightner]

Cross-dressing has been around for probably as long as we have had clothing. In Native American societies, there was the Berdache, who was a person in the tribe (usually a male) who would assume the gender identity and was granted the social status of the opposite sex. Some were shamuns who were highly revered and respected as special people who knew and understood both sexes. There was one historical example of a Crow chief who was a woman, had her own horses and possessions, her own teepee and had a wife.

Much of their social values were destroyed when the white men came over and imposed their social/moral standards on Native Americans.

As for bisexuality and homosexuality, they have been with us for as long as the human race has existed. They also exist in most animal species. At this time in our history, there has been an increase in social tolerance for alternative peoples. One could speculate all sorts of reasons for this -- one could be that we are evolving. Others speculate it is the second fall of the Roman Empire.

karol

 

[Miss Neecerie]

Women should be women, (and as a man I'm damm glad for those that are!) and men should be men.

*start pedantic linguistic opinion here*

Perhaps it would be better to say "women should be feminine, and men should be masculine'

A women in trousers acting like a man, is still by definition a woman. Same case with a man in female clothing or whatever. Woman and man are biological terms.

I do understand what you meant, but my brain reads 'a woman should be a woman' and thinks 'well failing actual surgery to change that state, a woman is -always- fundamentally going to be a woman'

*end pedantic linguistic opinion*

I know what you meant, and am not trying to be argumentative, but I am by nature a linguist and so it just nags at me.

With respect
Denise

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Yeah, good point,.....

If you go there, then I'd say there's also the argument about the influence of environmental hormones. Those chemicals released into our environment and accumilate, inducing effeminate changes in bugs, fish, primates, etc. Enough experiments have been going on to prove their danger. And, how some of our food stuff is treated/created with various chemicals and hormones to encourage growth.
What our the present society is, is complex, and becoming even more complex with the influx of the various values of the various cultures.

I agree. I tend to focus on the mental aspects of things. As the mind goes, so goes the body. But you're right, there are also physical causes for our society's ills. Pollution of the environment and the meddling of mankind with the natural world.
Some manipulation of our environment is good, but too much of a good thing upsets the balance of nature. (But that is maybe the basis for an entirely differant thread?)

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Okay Miss Neecerie,.......

*start pedantic linguistic opinion here*

Perhaps it would be better to say "women should be feminine, and men should be masculine'

A women in trousers acting like a man, is still by definition a woman. Same case with a man in female clothing or whatever. Woman and man are biological terms.

I do understand what you meant, but my brain reads 'a woman should be a woman' and thinks 'well failing actual surgery to change that state, a woman is -always- fundamentally going to be a woman'

*end pedantic linguistic opinion*

I know what you meant, and am not trying to be argumentative, but I am by nature a linguist and so it just nags at me.

With respect
Denise

I get ya. It's just my old fashioned 1940's manner of expressing myself. Give a guy a break, will ya?

:cheers1:

 

[whistlebait]

a bit scary

Ironically, I think that dressing a lot younger than you are just makes you look older:

So I am just wondring if anyone knows the identity of the older woman in the picture?

 

[swankysister]

I do wear a tailored-for-females-pinstripe suit (made by a company that's inspired by vintage fashion, rather than produces exact reproductions). I look much better in trousers. I occasionally wear skirts and heels, which never quite look right, but if I try on a floral sundress, I look really, really insipid and daft. (Luckily they're not to my personal taste anyway).

There are movements around the world, such as Total Clothing Rights, which raise awareness about the anomaly of men being persecuted if they want to wear skirts, heels or make-up.

I (and a few females I know) love UK comedian Eddie Izzard in terms of his sense of humour and his level of self-assurance in wearing women's clothing. (Although I must admit that he looks like me in a skirt - not good. He looks much better in slim tops and pants IMO). He regularly attests that when he wears make-up and non-traditional clothing, people assume that he's gay, although he is hetero- and has many blokey 'male' interests such as war history, politics and sport.

I find it more offputting to see too much flesh or overly shabby clothes on show than a man wearing make-up and heels. My $0.02.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Forgive me but,....

...I just don't quite get it. I mean, why would a person want to dress as a member of the opposite sex?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not so overly stodgy and ultra conservative that I would disrespect a person's right to dress in whatever fashion they desire. In fact I would take to the skies and get myself shot down yet another time in order to defend their right to do so. But I just can't see a real reason for it other than to rile others. Maybe they do it for shock value,....to draw attention to themselves. Which is kind of egotistical really, and so it seems rather rude. People like Boy George and Michael Jackson really don't need to appear as circus freaks to impress me. Their music is impressive enough in it's own right. :cheers1:

 

[Miss Neecerie]

...I just don't quite get it. I mean, why would a person want to dress as a member of the opposite sex?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not so overly stodgy and ultra conservative that I would disrespect a person's right to dress in whatever fashion they desire. In fact I would take to the skies and get myself shot down yet another time in order to defend their right to do so. But I just can't see a real reason for it other than to rile others. Maybe they do it for shock value,....to draw attention to themselves. Which is kind of egotistical really, and so it seems rather rude. People like Boy George and Michael Jackson really don't need to appear as circus freaks to impress me. Their music is impressive enough in it's own right. :cheers1:

Maybe they just like how they look? Much like we all prefer how we look, dressed in something that is 'not the standard of clothing for today'....It very well could be as simple as that.

Just because you cant see it or understand it on a personal level, doesnt mean they are doing it for shock value. Admittedly some might be, but again, thats a generalisation of a whole group based on what one person might or might not feel. Some vintage dressers might be doing it for that same 'shock value of being different'

 

[Marc Chevalier]

So I am just wondring if anyone knows the identity of the older woman in the picture?

Easy. It's Bette Davis as the old "Baby Jane" in the film, "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?" Incidentally, the girl with her played the young "Baby Jane."

 

[swankysister]

But I just can't see a real reason for it other than to rile others. Maybe they do it for shock value,....to draw attention to themselves.

Heh, Mr Izzard bases one part of his routine on this. He was bashed up by a group of (mostly) men. Their defence in court was that Mr Izzard asked for it, because he was wearing make-up. "What, do you think that I put on lippy and walk around saying come onnnnn".

No, I think it boils down to self-expression and personal aesthetics. Some TVs like to dress in male attire and grow facial hair, then glam it up with make-up and heels when the mood strikes them (and if they have the confidence to do so).

As Miss Neecerie introduced as a concept, 'vintage' dressers like to source and wear vintage or repro items of clothing and accoutrements. Some vintage fans dress up occasionally, some live the vintage lifestyle 24/7. I suspect that very few (if any) vintage fans do it for shock value. I assume they do it because the style best represents their aesthetic sensibilities.

And I'm guessing that what feels normal to a vintage dresser looks downright 'dorky' or 'weird' to those who don't share the passion or sense of style.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Ah Miss Neecerie, you are a dear for defending the underdogs! But....

Maybe they just like how they look? Much like we all prefer how we look, dressed in something that is 'not the standard of clothing for today'....It very well could be as simple as that.

Just because you cant see it or understand it on a personal level, doesnt mean they are doing it for shock value. Admittedly some might be, but again, thats a generalisation of a whole group based on what one person might or might not feel. Some vintage dressers might be doing it for that same 'shock value of being different'

Do they truly like how they look day in and day out? Do they ever at times dress more inconspicuously, as when going to the corner store, maybe? I would think so. Have you seen Boy George lately? He looks like something from a Hellraisers movie. There could be no other reason for it than to get attention, at those times when that attention is wanted, as during performances perhaps.
I've got to hand it to him then, maybe it takes tremendous courage to look that way? :clap
Whereas, people that dress vintage don't really appear too terribly odd or out of place to the average person. Provided of course, that they don't dress too vintage, like for instance 18th century or earlier!

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Yes, I agree,...

Heh, Mr Izzard bases one part of his routine on this. He was bashed up by a group of (mostly) men. Their defence in court was that Mr Izzard asked for it, because he was wearing make-up. "What, do you think that I put on lippy and walk around saying come onnnnn".

No, I think it boils down to self-expression and personal aesthetics. Some TVs like to dress in male attire and grow facial hair, then glam it up with make-up and heels when the mood strikes them (and if they have the confidence to do so).

As Miss Neecerie introduced as a concept, 'vintage' dressers like to source and wear vintage or repro items of clothing and accoutrements. Some vintage fans dress up occasionally, some live the vintage lifestyle 24/7. I suspect that very few (if any) vintage fans do it for shock value. I assume they do it because the style best represents their aesthetic sensibilities.

And I'm guessing that what feels normal to a vintage dresser looks downright 'dorky' or 'weird' to those who don't share the passion or sense of style.

It is self expression and personal aesthetics. I just like our old fashioned aesthetic so much better! And I am very proud to be weird and dorky to those that would be of that opinion! In fact, I would consider it a compliment! :cheers1:

 

[Miss Neecerie]

Do they truly like how they look day in and day out? Do they ever at times dress more inconspicuously, as when going to the corner store, maybe? I would think so. Have you seen Boy George lately? He looks like something from a Hellraisers movie. There could be no other reason for it than to get attention, at those times when that attention is wanted, as during performances perhaps.
I've got to hand it to him then, maybe it takes tremendous courage to look that way? :clap
Whereas, people that dress vintage don't really appear too terribly odd or out of place to the average person. Provided of course, that they don't dress too vintage, like for instance 18th century or earlier!

You are presuming to know what someone else likes or dislikes? For all you know, if you would stop looking at it through your perspective, they -adore- the way they look day in and day out.

There could be -many- reasons other then for them to get attention. Again, you are presuming because -you- cannot see a reason, that everyone else on the planet shares this limited view with you.

You think vintage dressing is closer to the norm, perhaps so, but perhaps you are perceiving it as closer to the norm, because its how -you- dress and see things. Exactly like Boy George or whoever, thinks that how he expresses himself is wonderful, and how can all those boring people dress 'just like everyone else'...

and for the record, I am defending no one. I am defending the right and idea that we should stop -judging- others for their stylistic decisions, lest we might have others stop judging us.

If we come to this lounge to sit and discuss how everyone else is crazy, for dressing how they dress and we don't understand it..etc... Then when someone boggles at vintage dress and just can't understand it....we think they are crazy for not getting it.....You cant have it both ways.....Vintage dressers are just as much a subculture as any subculture out there....