wool felt / fur felt difference

[mayserwegener]

How long have you had that hat, Steve?

I have had it for about 2 years but it's from the 1930s. I have other old soft felt and stiff felt wool and wool blend hats.

 

[mayserwegener]

The "secret" is, or better was, in the weaving of woll.
I'm not an expert, but I notice that the best Italian hatters are (were) in the same area where the woll was produced from many years.
Most of the rain hats I saw when I was a child (on this side of the Alps and on the others), on every men here and there, are mostly in woll - loden - melange and in every felt tissue wool is the main component. Yes there are also some fur felt hats, but they are more precious and expensive.
Fur felt is better, but not underrate the woll hats.

For example the hats made in Monza were wool. The processing (fulling, Decatizing, ect) was / is also critical. Wool for hats is fulled (similar process as Fur felt) not woven. I know B&B (the company that made the hat I posted) did a lot of work in this area. I prefer vintage Fur felt (most of my hats are German and Austrian) but it's really hard to know if there was also wool content (see the blends in the old Austrian catalog I posted above). Also you have Vicuña and other speciality Wools at a higher price point. This old (early 1900s late 1800s) Negretti Wool German stiff felt has a fantastic finish and is also super light and durable. As far as I can tell the only draw back is the Wool tends to collect lint which you can see in the photo.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/58-negretti/#entry321

 

[mayserwegener]

Here is a German Loden or Loden blend hat from probably the early 1960s. This hat is very durable!

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/57-f-g-m-hutfabrik/#entry308

 

[tonyb]

I have had it for about 2 years but it's from the 1930s. I have other old soft felt and stiff felt wool and wool blend hats.

You tell us it doesn't fit you, so I'm assuming you haven't worn it much at all. I'm left to wonder how you might know what all this hat has been through over the seven decades plus before it came your way.

Perhaps we have differing definitions of "very heavy wear," which you tell us this hat has "definitely survived."

Look, I wouldn't dispute for a moment that old hats in general were better made -- much better made, in most cases -- than the run of hats being made these days. But even the finest hats show signs of wear, provided they get worn much. Almost all of the nearly new-looking vintage hats we so covet around this place survive in that condition because they are nearly new, in that they have seen very little use, and certainly not what I would consider "very heavy wear."

I got a whole lot of hats around here. Maybe a hundred or so. That's fewer than I once had. But I regularly wear only a few of them -- and those are hats I've made, because I can always make myself another hat, but I can't make another fine, unrestored vintage hat in nearly new condition. I hate to think that an item of attire that has survived in such a fine condition for 60, 70, 80 years would get damaged after only a year or three under my stewardship.

I am not a manual laborer, but my everyday hats get worn under "real world" conditions. They see the occasional downpour, get banged into doorways, get knocked off the backs of chairs and coat trees, etc. After a year or two or three of that, they get to looking worn, inside and out. I can rebuild them, if I wish, and they come out looking new (good materials, you know -- a hat built on an all-beaver Winchester body can be overhauled and made pretty much indistinguishable from new at least a couple-three times).

I've heard claims made for beaver felt that I'm reluctant to repeat, mostly because I have yet to see empirical evidence for all its allegedly superior qualities. I can say with certainty that it can take a much finer finish than rabbit. But as to its superior durability and water repellency? It may be true. But I couldn't tell you that.

Very heavy wear, in my book, is wearing a hat in all kinds of weather -- rain, snow, blinding sunlight. And getting dirty and sweaty in it, such that the hat develops a black, greasy, deposit at the bandline. That tarry stuff is indeed a mixture of sweat and dust. (Gross, eh?) Such a hat can be cleaned up, usually. It involves stripping the body bare and very probably replacing the sweatband and the ribbon and patiently, repeatedly soaking and scrubbing the body until all that funk is gone. Would a wool body hold up to that? Beats me. Depends on the wool body, I suppose. But I'd tell a person with a wool felt cowboy hat in such a condition that unless that hat holds some sentimental value, it probably wouldn't be worth all that trouble and expense.

 

[-30-]

"I purchased a wool hat when I started several years ago, it was my first hat, and my last wool hat."
Preacher Man.

So what you are telling us is that you have bought TWO Wool Hats; the First and The Last!


Regards,
J T

 

[alanfgag]

In vintage hats, the use of wool is intriguing. I have several that were blends produced during and right after the second world war when scarcity of supplies both domestic and imported forced innovation. I have one high end western that has vicuna added to beaver fur (amount unknown) which adds a special softness to the very fine felt finish.

My .02 would be that in contemporary merchandise, wool is good in cloth hats and berets, but in fedoras, should be avoided.

 

[mayserwegener]

You tell us it doesn't fit you, so I'm assuming you haven't worn it much at all. I'm left to wonder how you might know what all this hat has been through over the seven decades plus before it came your way.

Perhaps we have differing definitions of "very heavy wear," which you tell us this hat has "definitely survived."

Look, I wouldn't dispute for a moment that old hats in general were better made -- much better made, in most cases -- than the run of hats being made these days. But even the finest hats show signs of wear, provided they get worn much. Almost all of the nearly new-looking vintage hats we so covet around this place survive in that condition because they are nearly new, in that they have seen very little use, and certainly not what I would consider "very heavy wear."

I got a whole lot of hats around here. Maybe a hundred or so. That's fewer than I once had. But I regularly wear only a few of them -- and those are hats I've made, because I can always make myself another hat, but I can't make another fine, unrestored vintage hat in nearly new condition. I hate to think that an item of attire that has survived in such a fine condition for 60, 70, 80 years would get damaged after only a year or three under my stewardship.

I am not a manual laborer, but my everyday hats get worn under "real world" conditions. They see the occasional downpour, get banged into doorways, get knocked off the backs of chairs and coat trees, etc. After a year or two or three of that, they get to looking worn, inside and out. I can rebuild them, if I wish, and they come out looking new (good materials, you know -- a hat built on an all-beaver Winchester body can be overhauled and made pretty much indistinguishable from new at least a couple-three times).

I've heard claims made for beaver felt that I'm reluctant to repeat, mostly because I have yet to see empirical evidence for all its allegedly superior qualities. I can say with certainty that it can take a much finer finish than rabbit. But as to its superior durability and water repellency? It may be true. But I couldn't tell you that.

Very heavy wear, in my book, is wearing a hat in all kinds of weather -- rain, snow, blinding sunlight. And getting dirty and sweaty in it, such that the hat develops a black, greasy, deposit at the bandline. That tarry stuff is indeed a mixture of sweat and dust. (Gross, eh?) Such a hat can be cleaned up, usually. It involves stripping the body bare and very probably replacing the sweatband and the ribbon and patiently, repeatedly soaking and scrubbing the body until all that funk is gone. Would a wool body hold up to that? Beats me. Depends on the wool body, I suppose. But I'd tell a person with a wool felt cowboy hat in such a condition that unless that hat holds some sentimental value, it probably wouldn't be worth all that trouble and expense.

I think it's apparent this hat was worn heavily. Many of the old hats I get from Central Europe have seen tough times. I am sure it would stand up to repeated soaking and scrubbing (if definitely) needs it. I don't particular like the feel of the hat but it is very durable. How many old German or Austrian wool or wool blend hats (stiff or soft) have you held in your hands? Have you read any documentation on the subject?

Beaver fur has great felting ability but is not always the best for desired finish. For example Saxon Hare was used for the finest Velour hats. Hare doesn't have very good felting ability. This is why the stain was very important. I have posted a lot of documentation from German and Austrian sources on felt content and processing. Have you looked at any of it?

 

[mayserwegener]

In vintage hats, the use of wool is intriguing. I have several that were blends produced during and right after the second world war when scarcity of supplies both domestic and imported forced innovation. I have one high end western that has vicuna added to beaver fur (amount unknown) which adds a special softness to the very fine felt finish.

My .02 would be that in contemporary merchandise, wool is good in cloth hats and berets, but in fedoras, should be avoided.

The use of Wool (pure or blended) was more prevalent in Europe pre WII. Most were at the lowest price point but not all. If look at the Austrian hat catalog I posted some of the Loden (other specialty Wools) are at a higher price point. I agree about today although there might be some decent Loden hat felt being produced (used for Trachten hats).

 

[tonyb]

What I've seen of the modern wool hat body manufacturing has me wondering how they made the wool/whatever blends way back when.

I can imagine how a touch of vicuna (or cashmere, maybe?) would do good things for the hand of an otherwise all fur-felt hat body. I am assured by a friend that his bodies made predominantly of beaver fur felt with a bit of ermine and mink in the blend are just the ****, as the kids say these days. I know how nice a hand can be had with an all-beaver body; my friend tells me the ermine and mink bring it to a level such as you've likely never felt before.

I'd like to see how fur fiber is introduced to a body made predominantly of wool, made the way I've seen video of how wool hat bodies are made these days, by built up layers of wool batting.

 

[tonyb]

I think it's apparent this hat was worn heavily. Many of the old hats I get from Central Europe have seen tough times. I am sure it would stand up to repeated soaking and scrubbing (if definitely) needs it. I don't particular like the feel of the hat but it is very durable. How many old German or Austrian wool or wool blend hats (stiff or soft) have you held in your hands? Have you read any documentation on the subject?

Beaver fur has a great ability to felt but it doesn't always best for desired finish. I have posted a lot of documentation from German and Austrian sources on felt content and processing. Have you looked at any of it?

Oh please, Steve. I'm confident you are well read on old European hats. It's your area of expertise. But it doesn't take a trip to the library to know that that hat hasn't seen all that much use. Can you document that it has? Sure, the liner is dirty. I have hats a couple-three or four years old with dirty liners. BFD.

 

[mayserwegener]

Wool - Fur blends are still being made today. I am not aware of any videos or documentation of the current process. I have posted German fur blend recipes from the 19th century that include Fur and Wool. Here is one from the late 18th Century.

"The mixture, which is now produced for a hat made of the following materials together: 6 Lot Otter Hair, 1 Lot Beaver Hair, 1 Lot Red Vognone Wool, 4 Lot Unprepared Otter Hair."

 

[mayserwegener]

Oh please, Steve. I'm confident you are well read on old European hats. It's your area of expertise. But it doesn't take a trip to the library to know that that hat hasn't seen all that much use. Can you document that it has? Sure, the liner is dirty. I have hats a couple-three or four years old with dirty liners. BFD.

So how much use did it have? It's a city dress style and not rural work hat. Have you held such a wool hat in hand? Like I said I don't like the feel of the felt on this hat but it does appear to be very durable.

 

[tonyb]

I don't doubt it is, man. But any 70-plus-year-old hat that survives in that condition (it's a nice-lookin' hat, to my eye; yes, I clicked on the link to check out the additional pics), no matter its materials, spent the large majority of those years in a closet or an attic or whatever they call such spaces over in the old country. Perhaps it saw a few years of use, in the city, as you speculated. And perhaps by a person who took good care of his clothing.

And yes, I've handled many wool felt hats. Can't say I've rebuilt but a couple of 'em, though. One I dyed (with black cherry Kool-Aid), as an experiment. Actually came out okay.

 

[tonyb]

Maybe someone else could verify this (or debunk it), but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there are now more "proper" felt hats (as contrasted with caps and those sewn fabric brimmed hats) made of wool than any and all other animal fibers. My wholly anecdotal observation is that most felt hats I see out there in my world are woolies. In most cases, I can tell by looking.

I'm torn by what I see at that national chain that sells only hats carrying its own brand name. They charge well over a hundred bucks for the sort of quality that can be had for something like 40 bucks elsewhere. Wool bodies, cloth sweats, cheap grosgrain tacked on with stitches smack in the middle of the ribbon. But people buy 'em and wear 'em and seem happy enough with 'em.

If there's something good in that, it's that it makes finer hats seem a better bargain.

 

[mayserwegener]

I don't think the B&B hat I posted had an American equivalent. I will send it to you if you want to take a look at it. I have a lot of documentation on German and Austrian wool hat felt production. It was something they were very focused on. They also made Wool Velour. This is prior to WWII.

By the way I never said these old German and Austrian Wool soft felts were better than fur felt. My point is it's possible to make a high quality Wool soft felt dress hat. Also there were high quality Fur - Wool blends.

Here is an old (late 1800s early 1900s) German Wool Soft felt hat. The finish on this one is very smooth (similar to the Negretti stiff felt) but with a unique feel (nothing like fur felt).

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/60-c-w-n-hutfabriken/#entry325

 

[El Doctor]

I wish I'd found this thread before buying six hats!

 

[Frunobulax]

Welcome to the Lounge, delfargo. Where there are more opinions than Members.

You'll learn a lot here. These guys know their stuff!

 

[Bob Roberts]

I'm intrigued by "Cashmere."

 

[FrankMc]

Though they aren't fur, there are some wool hats that are very nice. I have a Stetson Hammer crushable western hat that not only wears great, but looks great too, and I would recommend those hats to anyone.

 

[Yesteryear]

I have some fur hats that both look and feel just like wool hats! They were made with sheep's fur.