Zoot Suits?

[A.R. McVintage]

Ellroy goes on a little about Zooter in his L.A. quartet...almost gleefully descibing the razor-laden sticks people would use to hack at and tear/destroy the suits.

 

[Benny Holiday]

I recently obtained a very interesting book by Eduardo Obregon Pagan titled "Murder at the Sleep Lagoon: Zoot Suits, Race and Riots in Wartime LA." (University of North Carolina Press, 2003. ISBN 0-8078-5494-8 for you cats that are interested). The author's studies into the historical events and the cultural impacts of those events that shaped 1940's LA make rivetting reading.

Mr Pagan places the zoot suit firmly in a wider Swing-jazz concept of the time, and notes that while the general hipster community that emerged from the East Coast tended to wear more colourful, flashier suits (as Malcolm X mentioned in his autobiography), the West Coast zoot suits tended to be more conservative in the type of fabric chosen, though they were seen as no less 'dandy' by the wearers. Research shows that the zoot suit was a popular fashion in Eastern cities by early 1940 (which jibes with the accounts of hipsters of the time like Art Pepper and Malcolm X). Far from being a Mexican-American fashion, it was favoured by Swing-crazed hepcats and streetwise hustlers of all skin tones, from which it filtered down to the teenage market, those young men who wanted to look cool and tough and hep (isn't that every 15-20 year old male? lol ).

I highly recommend the book. I'll post a couple of interesting excerpts for you later.

 

[Benny Holiday]

Excerpt from "Murder at the Sleepy Lagoon," pp 108-109

'A number of contemporary accounts traced the origins of the zoot suit to the African American community, although Chester Himes would have none of that and passed it off as a white invention*. Renowned sociologist Emory Bogardus offered a theory that the zoot suit was an American adaptation of a native costume in Pachuca, Mexico, but there is no evidence that the Mixtec or any neighbouring tribes wore clothing that even remotely resembled a Western-style suit. The New York Times places the birth of the zoot suit with Clyde Duncan, an African American busboy who ordered a customized suit at Freirson-McEvere's department store in Gainesville, Georgia, in February 1940. The measurements were then sent to the Globe Tailoring Company in Chicago, and the "killer-diller" style, as it was called in Georgia, caught on in Mississippi, Alabama, and Louisiana. From there the fashion found life in Harlem and spread throughout the rest of the country. Duncan was reportedly inspired by Clark Gable's wardrobe in Gone With the Wind, according to the Negro Digest.
'Newsweek, however, placed the origin of the zoot suit in Harlem a decade earlier, in the 1930s. Evidence from the Autobiography of Malcolm X corroborates this dating because it was a fashion already popular and readily available in retail stores in the Roxbury section of Boston when Malcolm X moved there in the summer of 1940. Likewise, jazz musician Art Pepper recalled in his autobiography, Straight Life, that the zoot suit was popular on Central Avenue when he arrived in Los Angeles in 1940. Given that, before 1943, the fashion elicited no media attention, which would have certainly facilitated the migration of the style from coast to coast, it is likely that jazz artists popularized the style in the cities they annually toured. Since the zoot suit was already popular and in production on both coasts by the summer of 1940, it likely originated not with Clyde Duncan in 1940 but elswehere in the mid-to-late 1930s.'

* Himes, "Zoot Suit Riots Are Race Riots".

 

[reetpleat]

'A number of contemporary accounts traced the origins of the zoot suit to the African American community, although Chester Himes would have none of that and passed it off as a white invention*. Renowned sociologist Emory Bogardus offered a theory that the zoot suit was an American adaptation of a native costume in Pachuca, Mexico, but there is no evidence that the Mixtec or any neighbouring tribes wore clothing that even remotely resembled a Western-style suit. The New York Times places the birth of the zoot suit with Clyde Duncan, an African American busboy who ordered a customized suit at Freirson-McEvere's department store in Gainesville, Georgia, in February 1940. The measurements were then sent to the Globe Tailoring Company in Chicago, and the "killer-diller" style, as it was called in Georgia, caught on in Mississippi, Alabama, and Louisiana. From there the fashion found life in Harlem and spread throughout the rest of the country. Duncan was reportedly inspired by Clark Gable's wardrobe in Gone With the Wind, according to the Negro Digest.
'Newsweek, however, placed the origin of the zoot suit in Harlem a decade earlier, in the 1930s. Evidence from the Autobiography of Malcolm X corroborates this dating because it was a fashion already popular and readily available in retail stores in the Roxbury section of Boston when Malcolm X moved there in the summer of 1940. Likewise, jazz musician Art Pepper recalled in his autobiography, Straight Life, that the zoot suit was popular on Central Avenue when he arrived in Los Angeles in 1940. Given that, before 1943, the fashion elicited no media attention, which would have certainly facilitated the migration of the style from coast to coast, it is likely that jazz artists popularized the style in the cities they annually toured. Since the zoot suit was already popular and in production on both coasts by the summer of 1940, it likely originated not with Clyde Duncan in 1940 but elswehere in the mid-to-late 1930s.'

* Himes, "Zoot Suit Riots Are Race Riots".

I can't diaagree with any of this. SOunds reasonable. But i must say that I have never seen a photo of any jazz musician wearing one except for cabo caloway who wore it a a costume.

I also do not recall seeing many jazz audience members in them. I think they wre more of a serious hipster and underworld members, who revolved around the jazz scene.

ANyone have photos of jazz musicians in zoot suits?

 

[Benny Holiday]

No photos, but I have read that around the time of the zoot suit riots a saxophonist and pianist with Grene Krupa's orchestra were assaulted by sailors in a Philadelphia subway station because they were wearing drape or semi-drape suits.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI...m=180169698029&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=008

American Vaudeville's "World Premiere" at the Alley Theatre. 1991-92

bk

 

[resortes805]

Pagan is a good scholar, although his conclusion on who actually killed Jose Diaz at the Sleepy Lagoon is still in disupte.

I'll do a quick search in my files of 'earnestly' zoot suited jazz musicians, it might take me a couple of days though.

 

[Benny Holiday]

I finished the book, with the last chapter focusing on the murder of Jose Diaz and Pagan's theory as to who his kiilers were and why they killed him. The author's hypothesis is that Diaz's two companions, seen walking away from the Delgadillo party after 1am with him, bashed him and robbed him for his weekly wages, which he'd been carrying in his pocket.

I guess we'll never know conclusively who killed that young man all those years ago now. Pagan mentions another couple of leads, including a confession that was given years later, but he points to problems with those other leads before presenting his own take on the event.

Resortes, I found the book to be really interesting. Although I grew up in a neighbourhood where kids of Italian, Greek, Vietnamese, Chilean, Uruguayan, Anglo and Yugoslav background all hung out, studied, played and grew up together, and therefore can't relate to the racial aspect of 1940s LA, my neighbourhood was very working class and I do understand where those tensions come from.

 

[Benny Holiday]

Charles Alston

Dig these crazy watercolours by famous African-American artist Charles Alston, inspired by New York street scenes in 1938-39:

"Zoot Suit":

And "Pool Hustler":

 

[thunderw21]

Thanks for those, Benny, they're great.

*right click, save as*

 

[Benny Holiday]

Glad you dig 'em Thunderw21. I think they're pretty cool! And right click is right . . . the originals are worth at least $12,500.

 

[cherry lips]

Couldn't resist sharing this pic:

1942 Zoot Girl Gang http://suicideblonde.tumblr.com

 

[Phineas Squidd]

Hello All, I was brought here by a google search for Zoot Suit. This is my first post and hope that I am not covering old ground. Reading this thread, there is a lot of discussion regarding the Zoot Suit origin. From what I can gather, the Zoot Suit was worn by all races in the early days, but was gradually worn more and more by the Pachucos and came eventually to be seen as a uniform of sorts for this community, and with the riots, it was given a very bad image indeed, to this day being banned in LA. So those rebels amongst you in LA wear one if you want to break the rules!! The reason I am writing here is that I would like to share this link...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/hannahe...ife-the-zoot-suit-that-cost-as-much-as-a-bmw/
From rags to riches....

 

[Marc Chevalier]

.
Phineas, if you haven't seen it already, this might interest you: http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?58168-My-VINTAGE-ZOOT-SUIT-–-c.-1940&

 

[Phineas Squidd]

Thank you Marc
I seethis has indeed already been covered, for which I apologise. I must say I love the pinched waist of the first example! Thank you, It seems I have hours of joy in front of me reading the million other posts! Once again, thank you!

 

[Benny Holiday]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnV23faO40U

 

[Baron Kurtz]

This was posted a long time ago, of course, but it's the first I've seen it. I'm fascinated by the hats. A little bit of artistic license I'm sure, but I know Lester Young as very fond of the very low crowned, very wide brimmed fedora.

Dig these crazy watercolours by famous African-American artist Charles Alston, inspired by New York street scenes in 1938-39:

"Zoot Suit":

And "Pool Hustler":

 

[resortes805]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnV23faO40U

Belted back zoot suit!

 

[Benny Holiday]

Been away for the weekend at Ballarat Beat playin' Wynonie Harris-style jump blues and just got back. I should 've known you wouldn't miss the belted back of that zoot Resortes nor miss the lyrics!

Baron I'm not sure what the African-Americans called those hats, I believe the West Coast hepsters called them tandos. I don't even know what the bodgies here in Australia called them! The Akubra Squatter makes a nice zoot suit hat if you bash the crown pork-pie style. Shame it only comes in like three or four bland colours.

 

[Samuel Pachuco Herrera]

I upload this a few years back.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwINn5DEL1c