Felt stiffness?

[fmw]

I'm curious about hat felt stiffness. I have three recent purchases. One was a new Stetson Open Road, then a "vintage" Borsalino Diamante and today I received my new Stetson Whippet. The felt on the Open Road is pretty stiff but the quality of the felt seems very good - as good as any of my older hats. The Borsalino has very soft felt - so soft the bash gets out of shape with the slightest touch. The Whippet is somewhere in between but closer to the Borsalino than the Open Road.

Is this due to different amounts of sizing added to the felt? Or is it caused by use and wear? Or is there some fundamental difference between the felts, all of which I assume are rabbit fur?

 

[gtdean48]

My opinion is that it is all about the amount of shellac. That OR has substantially more than your Whippet & tho the Borso may have had some initially, it has broken down over time & use.

 

[fmw]

So the shellac is something that is applied to the hat after manufacture as a coating?

 

[jlee562]

So the shellac is something that is applied to the hat after manufacture as a coating?

It's my understanding that it's applied during the manufacturing not so much as a coating per se but as, well, a stiffener and for water repellent properties.

 

[gtdean48]

So the shellac is something that is applied to the hat after manufacture as a coating?

Shellac is applied in the making of the felt blank before the hat is block, sized & finished. Look at the thread about the Winchester factory.

 

[Yeps]

Akubra has some conveniently placed info on how they do it.

Step four shows someone adding the shellac.

 

[tonyb]

...

Is this due to different amounts of sizing added to the felt? Or is it caused by use and wear?

...

Both.

Varying amounts of shellac are used in the manufacture (and refurbishing) of hats, but that stiffener breaks down with use. Typically a hat floppy from use can be restiffened without adding shellac. Heat from steaming and/or ironing the hat body (while on the block and flange) causes those broken-up little bits of shellac (which are still present in the felt) to soften and flow and weld themselves back together.

That's the theory, anyway. And that certainly seems to be what's happening, so unless and until I hear a better explanation, that'll work for me.

 

[fmw]

Ah. So the shellac is the sizing. It is what I suspected. Thanks.

 

[dwebber18]

I would also agree it is the difference in manufacturing styles, felt quality, and use. The newer Stetson seem to be a bit firmer than some other hats out there like a new Borso, and especially some older hats. The Borso is probably mostly due to use I'd say and the other is just the amount of shellac they used to make the hat.

 

[Mulceber]

Ah. So the shellac is the sizing. It is what I suspected. Thanks.

I'm just curious, but what do you mean by "sizing?" -M

 

[gtdean48]

I'm just curious, but what do you mean by "sizing?" -M

Sizing is a term used in textile manufacturing to give body to the material. Different chemicals are used to bond with the fibers.

 

[Mulceber]

Ah, ok. Thanks. Then I guess yeah, that would describe Shellac pretty well. Personally I prefer little to no shellac, but each person has his or her preferences. -M

 

[fmw]

It is also a term used in paper making as the material which is used to stiffen the product. Paper making is quite similar to felt making. Both are made from fibers that cling together after being wetted and pressed. I just assumed that felt making would use the same term. Apparently not.

 

[Mulceber]

Interesting - for all I know, it may be. I just don't recall ever hearing it referred to like that on the lounge. -M

 

[Art Fawcett]

It is also a term used in paper making as the material which is used to stiffen the product. Paper making is quite similar to felt making. Both are made from fibers that cling together after being wetted and pressed. I just assumed that felt making would use the same term. Apparently not.

In hatting terms it's simply called "the core" shellac and varies with not only every manufacturer of felt but with many hatters. Each hatter, if you have a good enough relationship with your felter, can specify the degree of core shellac making it impossible to standardize. BTW, that's OK ...it's what makes hatters different. ))

 

[fmw]

That brings up another question. Why use shellac for the purpose? One would think there would be superior modern materials. Or, perhaps, it is just a matter of tradition.

 

[Mulceber]

Possibly, but one thing I've discovered by reading about hats is it seems like the "traditional" ways are typically the best. I tend to be a utilitarian at heart, so I don't adhere to tradition for tradition's sake, but in hatting I've always gotten the impression that the traditional ways just tend to work better. eg. if you look at Art's site (the guy who you just responded to), you'll see that apparently the modern rayon (made from synthetics) isn't as good as the vintage stuff (made from wood pulp). -M

 

[monbla256]

That brings up another question. Why use shellac for the purpose? One would think there would be superior modern materials. Or, perhaps, it is just a matter of tradition.

I'm not sure if the "shellac" used in the hat industry is the same as what has been used in the woodworking industry, but that "shellac" USED to be made from Shellac Beattles carapace but is made synthetically today. If it's done the same for hatters, then you are looking at a "modern" material being used. Art could probably answer this better than I

 

[fmw]

I'm in the cutlery business. The Japanese, for instance, have been making cutlery for centuries (or millenia, really.) Their industry is steeped in tradition to the point that, sometimes, it gets in the way of progress. For instance, traditional hand forged Japanese knives are normally made of a couple of types of carbon steel that trace their origins back to the hand-made tamahagane from which the samurai swords were made. And these steels produce excellent results. A few maverick Japanese makers forge knives from modern tool steels - the kinds of steels that are used in equipment that cuts steel. The tool steel Japanese knives are nothing short of amazing. They outperform the traditional carbon steels by a considerable margin. However, the Japanese consider them inferior to the traditional materials. Tradition takes precedence over innovation.

I'm not suggesting that the hat industry suffers from this sort of thing. Nor am I suggesting that the old ways aren't the best ways. And I'm certainly mindful of this group's passion for tradition and history. My experience with cutlery is what motivated the question.

 

[Neophyte]

I'm in the cutlery business. The Japanese, for instance, have been making cutlery for centuries (or millenia, really.) Their industry is steeped in tradition to the point that, sometimes, it gets in the way of progress. For instance, traditional hand forged Japanese knives are normally made of a couple of types of carbon steel that trace their origins back to the hand-made tamahagane from which the samurai swords were made. And these steels produce excellent results. A few maverick Japanese makers forge knives from modern tool steels - the kinds of steels that are used in equipment that cuts steel. The tool steel Japanese knives are nothing short of amazing. They outperform the traditional carbon steels by a considerable margin. However, the Japanese consider them inferior to the traditional materials. Tradition takes precedence over innovation.

I'm not suggesting that the hat industry suffers from this sort of thing. Nor am I suggesting that the old ways aren't the best ways. And I'm certainly mindful of this group's passion for tradition and history. My experience with cutlery is what motivated the question.

Thanks, FMW! That was fascinating, and certainly brings your point home.