Felt stiffness?

[fmw]

I'm not sure if the "shellac" used in the hat industry is the same as what has been used in the woodworking industry, but that "shellac" USED to be made from Shellac Beattles carapace but is made synthetically today. If it's done the same for hatters, then you are looking at a "modern" material being used. Art could probably answer this better than I

That's certainly a good point. For that matter, shellac might simply be the traditional term for felt "core" material. What they use today may have very little similarity to shellac either old or modern.

 

[monbla256]

I'm not suggesting that the hat industry suffers from this sort of thing. Nor am I suggesting that the old ways aren't the best ways. And I'm certainly mindful of this group's passion for tradition and history. My experience with cutlery is what motivated the question.[/QUOTE]

Then there's always the view that "... if it 'aint broke, why fix it "

 

[fmw]

I did a little surfing. As it turns out, the hat shellac is a synthetic resin. Some types are aqueous while others are alcohol-based. Some are used by dipping and others are used by spraying or brushing the resin on the surface of the felt. One manufacturer I found makes both types. One is for straw hats and the other is for felt. I forget which is which. I found the patent for the aqueous type and the description talked about polymers - certainly synthetic. There you have it.

 

[Gumbo Book]

Very Interesting!

Is shellac something we take for granted. ( very industrious work fmw, I used to work at the European Patent Office, they need people like you there )
On another point. It appears to me that the difference between the "old" methods and today is simply automation. A large amount of hats are made in spain, some stetson too, in a factory there. I have little experience of this at the moment - but it appears that some factorys wet block their hats too quickly - causing a lot of shrinkage and other morbities.

As apposed to blocking by hand which is a longer process- the crown and brim being finished by hand and so on. With this I think the felt gets longer care and attention.

I have heard that if you have the money to order in bulk that you can get raw bodies with no shellac - but only direct from the felt maker. There are some factories in Europe.
This thread is interesting in so far as every single Hatmaker I find does things differently than the other. There are some who use a Machine to block a body and use an automated crown Iron and those who stretch the felt physically with pressure over a block with there hands and iron by hand too.
The only thing that is similiar is the process, and varying degrees of qaulity in that process. There are some really badly made hats out there. One hat I had - had so much stiffener that it seemed to contract the fibres in the felt - shrinking it ( I made need some clarification on that ).

I may have gone off topic here, but that's the great thing that appeals about hats, the diversity.

Gumbo.

 

[fmw]

Thanks. Perhaps Mr. Fawcett will chime in again. I'd be interested to know how a hatter chooses a shellac for a given application and what the properties are of the different types. I don't exactly know why I'm interested in that. I guess it is just my curious nature.

 

[Gumbo Book]

Thanks. Perhaps Mr. Fawcett will chime in again. I'd be interested to know how a hatter chooses a shellac for a given application and what the properties are of the different types. I don't exactly know why I'm interested in that. I guess it is just my curious nature.

Your curiosity is in very good company

 

[Art Fawcett]

Thanks. Perhaps Mr. Fawcett will chime in again. I'd be interested to know how a hatter chooses a shellac for a given application and what the properties are of the different types. I don't exactly know why I'm interested in that. I guess it is just my curious nature.

Boy. a lot has been done since I checked in yesterday. Good work fmw, there ARE many to choose from and Gumbo you are right, hatters can choose no core stiffener but I've found that at least SOME is needed.
Boy, where to start. OK, I think I need to go to basics first.

The bane of hatting is shrinkage otherwise known as "taper". The natural formation of felt itself is done by mixing fibers with water & heat then rubbing them together, making them bond. ( I know there is SO much more but this is for the newbies). This process continues even after the hat is made simply by weather conditions, body heat & perspiration ( albeit ever so slightly) . When felt is made for hats it's done in a cone shape that the hatter then makes a hat from. Now, going to the first point is where many hatters differ in their method, usually with taper in mind. The felt , once blocked into a hat shape, wants to return to it's cone shape so most of the hatters work is to prevent that.

I prefer to wet block because it keeps the felt on the block longer to dry, therefore setting the shape better than a 15 second push with a steamed press and cooled ( blocking machine) . I prefer a soft hat so I keep my core to a minimum and honestly, I don't care about the composition of the shellac as long as it achieves what I'm looking for and that is the hand ( feel to the touch). The stiffeners you are referring to fmw are usually surface stiffeners although there are both water based and alcohol based. I'm afraid I'm one step removed from the felt making so I'm not as up to speed as I could be but again, I look for results, not process. BTW Alcohol is reserved but not exclusive for felt. Can wreak havoc on a straw.

There are many differences in hatters simply by what equipment we are able to get, find, buy and how important each particular piece of equipment is to the process. I believe that there are pieces that are critical to the process so I would never do without say, my crown iron or my heated sandbag. There are hatters that don't iron the crowns and that produces a quality that they are happy with along with guys that don't use a sandbag at all.
Hatting is a bit like a "shade tree" mechanic . You can use a 5K lift to remove a motor or an old oak limb, but the motor is still removed. You can reassemble the motor in the outdoors in the sun ( and dust) or you can do it in a sterile room. Both will complete the job but you might want to pay more for sterile. How much both you and the hatter care about quality will dictate the steps and financial commitment that the hatter makes to improve his/her product and that often involves equipment. In the end though, the best equipped shop does NOT necessarily produce the best hats but attention to detail does.

All in all, it's like any other biz Gumbo. You will get varying answers to similar questions based sometimes on availability. "NO you don't need a crown iron to make a good hat " to me translates to "I don't have one therefore it isn't needed". I've also found that the ones that talk and brag the most usually are and know the least.

Boy have I strayed off topic. I like your steel story fmw, we often get caught up in the traditions but I would caution making "newer is better" ( even though you haven't) statement too broad. In my previous career I trained a number of apprentices and each one thought they had a "better idea" than the traditional methods and of course, those ideas were tried many years before them, with little success.

 

[zetwal]

Interesting reply, Art. Thanks for that ...

 

[rlk]

1928 Stiffeners

 

[zetwal]

I'm surprised to read that viscosity has nothing to do absorption. I would think that viscosity would impact both quantity and quality of absorption.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Considering it's a lacquer, and used for straw rather than felt, I wouldn't think there would be much if any absorption.

Brad

 

[fmw]

Thanks for that. You got a little over my novice head with some of the equipment and techniques since I know nothing about them. It is obvious, though, that your goal is to maximize quality and perfect your craft and that is an attitude I wholeheartedly support. I appreciate the feedback and I will now stop worrying about shellac.

 

[Gumbo Book]

Wow Art,
You're right, of course.

I am set for years and years of figuring out. In England there are no hatmakers as such - more milliners. Very hard to get advice that's both kind and informative. But I get it bit by bit. Learning and time is the key. And it's all too easy to get carried away. Way too easy.

I'm very lucky to have a hat museum an hour up the road and that's helped me alot ( for those who are interested check out http://www.hatworks.org.uk/ Stockport hat museum ) I only get up there about twice a year, and get some advice. I have to date only made four hats. All terrible, but every time I learn more - I get a little better every time. ( It's sends my Wife up the wall )

I often see other hatmakers and there equipment and I often think to myself "Do I have to buy that and THAT and "THAT". My memories are only of british hatters and some in the netherlands as I am half dutch, I remember both my grandfathers having their hats "Done" i.e. refurbished as a kid. I remember a row of hat Irons and a steamer - and Blocks in the back room. I'm going back to the late 70's here. I didn't see any of the machines there apart from what looked like a pouncing machine. I can only therefore summise that the whole process was done by hand. It must have been wonderful to watch!

I'm just one those guys who is fascinated by the entire process. And I love making things.

It get's quite lonely here in the north of England

Gumbo.

 

[zetwal]

Considering it's a lacquer, and used for straw rather than felt, I wouldn't think there would be much if any absorption.

I didn't even realize that they were talking about straw. Now I see that it's obvious. That explains everything, and more.

 

[Gumbo Book]

Maybe of interest to some.

http://www.hatworks.org.uk/images/HAT_Works_info_sheet_No6.pdf

 

[fmw]

I couldn't figure what a crown iron is so I went surfing again. i couldn't find a very good image of one. I did find the image below which was on a site for a hat shop that is for sale. The crown iron is a fairly significant piece of machinery and it's purpose looks fairly obvious from the image.

 

[Gumbo Book]

These are the ones I've seen. A revolving Lathe ( sic ).

I will probably be corrected on this - but from what I understand ( as per Arts' comments ) the felt is ironed dry after blocking. ( there is something about how it continues the felting process after blocking - but I'm really vague on that ) It would be really interesting to know what sort of temprature these things need to be.

Interesting.

 

[Art Fawcett]

LOL..sorry , I didn't really intend to open another can of worms and Gumbo I wasn't aware you made hats so I hope my comments didn't seem directed at you. fmw, as you can read into my post hat making is both art and science & I personally focus in on the "art" side of things. My friend Brad above has a great interest in the academics & science of it all including a great tutorial on the Cavanaugh edge so there are obviously both sides represented here.


Fmw, the crown iron is used in the process not to dry the hat initially, although I have used it to speed the process, but to add heat & steam, increasing the density, making it easier to get a "tight" finish on the felt. A secondary benefit is to "activate" the core making it a bit stiffer( preventing taper longer). Every hatter uses it in various ways and number of times, at what stages, all of which are secrets to each hatter. It's a very competitive biz & everyone tries copying success so secrets are needed to stay ahead.


The sandbag ( or flange press) does the same basic thing as the crown iron in that it "sets" the brim with heat that activates the core, giving the brim more body & stamina. It is simply a bag with 60-70 lbs of sand that is heated and pressed down on the inverted hat.

To both of you there is a great book on ebay that I consider the ultimate book on hatting called "Scientific hat finishing and Renovating" that is being reprinted and sold quite cheaply. I have an original that I paid dearly for years ago. It shows how, step by step, to make hats, even set up a hat shop. Bear in mind it was written in 1919 so some things are outdated ( benzene? gasoline to clean hats?) but the information is as good today as it was 90 yrs ago.

 

[fmw]

I found it pretty interesting to peruse the hat making equipment I found on the web. Everything from crown and brim blocks to sewing machines. It is an interesting craft. I'm always fascinated by how things are made. I have no intention of getting into hat making but I might read the book just for the interest. Thanks again.

 

[zetwal]

To both of you there is a great book on ebay that I consider the ultimate book on hatting called "Scientific hat finishing and Renovating" that is being reprinted and sold quite cheaply. I have an original that I paid dearly for years ago. It shows how, step by step, to make hats, even set up a hat shop. Bear in mind it was written in 1919 so some things are outdated ( benzene? gasoline to clean hats?) but the information is as good today as it was 90 yrs ago.

It is indeed a great book. I bought mine inexpensively (reprint) a couple years ago. I always thought that when the book refers to "gasoline" it was referring to white gasoline. And I thought "white gasoline" is the same thing as what we today call camper fuel (naphtha). However you slice it - a great book indeed.