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Baron Kurtz said:
I can understand your love for the Highland but Lapphroaig?!
lol Do they have a generic version of Talisker?
The price sounds pretty good for a decent single malt. I raise my glass to your good sense. :cheers1:
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LIST YOUR HAT BOOKS
- Thread starter Andykev
- Start date
I can understand your love for the Highland but Lapphroaig?!
lol Do they have a generic version of Talisker?
The price sounds pretty good for a decent single malt. I raise my glass to your good sense. :cheers1:
Brad Bowers
I'll Lock Up
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Baron Kurtz said:
Then I look forward to continuing this conversation tomorrow. Think I'll join you a drink. Rye for me.
Brad
Baron Kurtz
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Gentlemen Hatters says:
"Forth from his hacienda rides the Mexicano, on a ten dollar horse, with a hundred dollar saddle, wearing a three dollar suit and a forty dollar hat. Literary credit for this observation of human nature belongs to Elbert Hubbard [Stetson's biographer]. But the commercial credit, and the everlasting kudos of having capitalized upon it, belongs to John B. Stetson.
Stetson was the first hatter, after the advent of hatting machinery, to set out to popularise hats of intrinsic value. The great days of hatting have been those eras when the hat has been sought after for its own inherent merit as an object of value. And Stetson brought those great days back again, after the coming of the machines had apparently made cheapness a sine qua non of hatting.
…
Into the picture then came Stetson, burning up with the urge to do something different. Hats, since the revolution of the hat trade brought about by the introduction of the Burr Blower, had been selling between two and four dollars. Previously, in the old days of hand forming with the hatter's bow, they had sold (when made of good fur felt) in the neighbourhood of fifteen dollars. But for the twenty years before started his own business, three dollars was regarded as the practically standard price for a good hat. Stetson's great contribution, that made himself wealthy and the hat trade healthy, was the rediscovery of the upper price levels.
At first he met nothing but discouragement. He was trying to launch a hat that would be something other than "just another good hat". Day after day, into store after store, he would walk, wearing the latest "Stetson creation". But he had to swallow the bitter pill, as so many would-be stylists among manufacturers have had to do, that new fashions can't just be "thought up", that the current style can't be bucked by only one maker, or even any group of makers. Stetson was trying to swim against a current that was too strong. And style after style failed miserably. Then, with his funds running very low, he thought of trying, since he couldn't start a new style, to start a new quality. Down to his last dime he dug, to buy the very finest fur that could be bought. Felt hats just after the Civil War commonly weighed about four ounces. (While the derby and the stovepipe silk hat were the most commonly worn, there was some vogue for soft felt, dating from 1850, when Kossuth, the tremendously popular Hungarian exile, started the fashion. Stetson sat down and made on that weighed a scant two ounces, very soft, very fine, very light. Again he started on the rounds of Philadelphia stores, wearing this new lightweight hope. A customer, his curiosity aroused by the Stetson sales talk, asked to try on the hat. Putting it on, he gave a grin of delight, and asked if he could buy it. The result was an order for a dozen. Stetson went straight back and made them, and got his money, before he even tried to sell another store. trying the stores again, he found that the new lightweight could be sold and he sold it.. But he couldn't get anyone to pay what it was worth. So he went on, forced to be content with a very tiny profit, getting nowhere as far as his desire to popularise a high-priced hat was concerned, but getting money to buy high priced furs. When, finally, he had enough stock, he decided to stake everything on one big gamble.
Convinced that Philadelphia retailers wouldn't buy expensive hats, he sought to find someone who would. Remembering that the ranchers of the Southwest wore big hats of which they seemed inordinately proud, along with their finest silver mounted saddles, in Mexico, he decided to sample every store in the Southwest. Again he went down to the last dime, to make sample hats. Some he made of the finest hare's fur. These he priced at five dollars, and decided, then and there, that would be his lowest price. Some he made of a blend of hare's fur and nutria. these he priced at fifteen dollars. And some of clear beaver. These to sell at thirty. All, however, were made in one romantic model, natural colour, four inch crown and four inch brim. Hubbard called it "a sombrero with a college education." That was a good name for it. But Stetson, at the time, gave it a better one. He named it "The Boss of the Plains." The name and the hat caught everyone's fancy out in the great open spaces, whither he sent every sample hat with a letter asing for an initial order of a dozen. The orders flocked in, and the name for a hat, throughout the West, ceased to be "a hat", became a "Stetson."
Stetson hats, launched by one master stroke, swept the country. Men bought them, not because they were the latest style in New York, but because they were fine hats, because they were expensive hats, and most important of all, because people as much as a block away could tell they were fine and expensive. And that was what brought back the great days of hatting. Stetson became the Colossus of the Hat Trade, but the whole hat trade benefited. Stetson sales were to rise as high as 45% of the country's total sales. But all sales, for the next sixty five years, were to reflect the secret that Stetson found: hats may be sold, not alone as expressions of a current style, but as objects of intrinsic value.
Only today, apparently, does the loss of that secret threaten."
And so, i get from this - admittedly slightly hagiographic - that Stetson was far from "the everyman's hat". I think everyman suggests a quality that anyone can afford. This is false. If a man had a Stetson (and sales data suggests that more men wore Stetson than any other single company's product), he had invested quite a bit of money in it. More than he would have invested in, say, a Cavanagh or a Knox. So, far from Stetson being lower-end than hat corp companies, i suspect the dynamic was entirely reversed. My admittedly limited experience would suggest that, to my amateur eye, Stetsons were the best of the American hats from the era we're all interested in. But, they are for some reason not within spitting distance of the best European manufacturers.
The last sentence above quoted suggests that Apparel Arts was trying to scare the trade out of its cost-cutting ways that were being seen in the 1930s and 40s. (The article was published in 1932 so it can be reasonably concluded, based on the relative quality of 1930s felts vs 1940s felts, that they failed). Indeed, the very next part of the article is about "Why hatters are mad" and relates the problems of the hat trade.
bk
"Forth from his hacienda rides the Mexicano, on a ten dollar horse, with a hundred dollar saddle, wearing a three dollar suit and a forty dollar hat. Literary credit for this observation of human nature belongs to Elbert Hubbard [Stetson's biographer]. But the commercial credit, and the everlasting kudos of having capitalized upon it, belongs to John B. Stetson.
Stetson was the first hatter, after the advent of hatting machinery, to set out to popularise hats of intrinsic value. The great days of hatting have been those eras when the hat has been sought after for its own inherent merit as an object of value. And Stetson brought those great days back again, after the coming of the machines had apparently made cheapness a sine qua non of hatting.
…
Into the picture then came Stetson, burning up with the urge to do something different. Hats, since the revolution of the hat trade brought about by the introduction of the Burr Blower, had been selling between two and four dollars. Previously, in the old days of hand forming with the hatter's bow, they had sold (when made of good fur felt) in the neighbourhood of fifteen dollars. But for the twenty years before started his own business, three dollars was regarded as the practically standard price for a good hat. Stetson's great contribution, that made himself wealthy and the hat trade healthy, was the rediscovery of the upper price levels.
At first he met nothing but discouragement. He was trying to launch a hat that would be something other than "just another good hat". Day after day, into store after store, he would walk, wearing the latest "Stetson creation". But he had to swallow the bitter pill, as so many would-be stylists among manufacturers have had to do, that new fashions can't just be "thought up", that the current style can't be bucked by only one maker, or even any group of makers. Stetson was trying to swim against a current that was too strong. And style after style failed miserably. Then, with his funds running very low, he thought of trying, since he couldn't start a new style, to start a new quality. Down to his last dime he dug, to buy the very finest fur that could be bought. Felt hats just after the Civil War commonly weighed about four ounces. (While the derby and the stovepipe silk hat were the most commonly worn, there was some vogue for soft felt, dating from 1850, when Kossuth, the tremendously popular Hungarian exile, started the fashion. Stetson sat down and made on that weighed a scant two ounces, very soft, very fine, very light. Again he started on the rounds of Philadelphia stores, wearing this new lightweight hope. A customer, his curiosity aroused by the Stetson sales talk, asked to try on the hat. Putting it on, he gave a grin of delight, and asked if he could buy it. The result was an order for a dozen. Stetson went straight back and made them, and got his money, before he even tried to sell another store. trying the stores again, he found that the new lightweight could be sold and he sold it.. But he couldn't get anyone to pay what it was worth. So he went on, forced to be content with a very tiny profit, getting nowhere as far as his desire to popularise a high-priced hat was concerned, but getting money to buy high priced furs. When, finally, he had enough stock, he decided to stake everything on one big gamble.
Convinced that Philadelphia retailers wouldn't buy expensive hats, he sought to find someone who would. Remembering that the ranchers of the Southwest wore big hats of which they seemed inordinately proud, along with their finest silver mounted saddles, in Mexico, he decided to sample every store in the Southwest. Again he went down to the last dime, to make sample hats. Some he made of the finest hare's fur. These he priced at five dollars, and decided, then and there, that would be his lowest price. Some he made of a blend of hare's fur and nutria. these he priced at fifteen dollars. And some of clear beaver. These to sell at thirty. All, however, were made in one romantic model, natural colour, four inch crown and four inch brim. Hubbard called it "a sombrero with a college education." That was a good name for it. But Stetson, at the time, gave it a better one. He named it "The Boss of the Plains." The name and the hat caught everyone's fancy out in the great open spaces, whither he sent every sample hat with a letter asing for an initial order of a dozen. The orders flocked in, and the name for a hat, throughout the West, ceased to be "a hat", became a "Stetson."
Stetson hats, launched by one master stroke, swept the country. Men bought them, not because they were the latest style in New York, but because they were fine hats, because they were expensive hats, and most important of all, because people as much as a block away could tell they were fine and expensive. And that was what brought back the great days of hatting. Stetson became the Colossus of the Hat Trade, but the whole hat trade benefited. Stetson sales were to rise as high as 45% of the country's total sales. But all sales, for the next sixty five years, were to reflect the secret that Stetson found: hats may be sold, not alone as expressions of a current style, but as objects of intrinsic value.
Only today, apparently, does the loss of that secret threaten."
And so, i get from this - admittedly slightly hagiographic - that Stetson was far from "the everyman's hat". I think everyman suggests a quality that anyone can afford. This is false. If a man had a Stetson (and sales data suggests that more men wore Stetson than any other single company's product), he had invested quite a bit of money in it. More than he would have invested in, say, a Cavanagh or a Knox. So, far from Stetson being lower-end than hat corp companies, i suspect the dynamic was entirely reversed. My admittedly limited experience would suggest that, to my amateur eye, Stetsons were the best of the American hats from the era we're all interested in. But, they are for some reason not within spitting distance of the best European manufacturers.
The last sentence above quoted suggests that Apparel Arts was trying to scare the trade out of its cost-cutting ways that were being seen in the 1930s and 40s. (The article was published in 1932 so it can be reasonably concluded, based on the relative quality of 1930s felts vs 1940s felts, that they failed). Indeed, the very next part of the article is about "Why hatters are mad" and relates the problems of the hat trade.
bk
Brad Bowers
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- 4,187
Wow, that's the opposite of what I was thinking, too. Admittedly, my knowledge of Stetson history is sketchy at best, with my attention focused elsewhere.
Chronologically, it sounds like this was during the 1860s and '70s, but I wonder how that translates into the '30s and '40s? As we have seen, by mid-century, the major hat companies kept their prices within the range of their competitors', so the pricepoint seems to be negligible by that time.
By Everyman's hat, I mean not that every man could afford one, but the idea that every man owned one. Yes, this isn't true, but Stetson sales were higher than their closest competitor, and the name Stetson has come to be synonymous with "hat," at least in this country. Every cowboy hat is a Stetson, every fedora is a Stetson, and so forth. Not in reality, but in public perception. This didn't happen overnight, but over the course of the last century plus.
Stetson as a status symbol is an interesting thought. Perhaps it started out that way, but sheer volume seems to have eventually pushed it into the realm of mass culture. Since Stetson "set out to popularise hats of intrinsic value," I can only conclude that John Cavanagh was following his lead, positioning his own brand as the status symbol that it became in mid-century.
(There is a brief document at the NYPL on the marketing of Cavanagh hats that should answer some questions, but the NYPL won't copy it for my research, thinking it could still be in copyright, even though HATCO has told me they don't believe they own the copyright to the documents. If anyone in NYC would like to help an impoverished historian out, I could make it worth your while! And to keep this on-topic somewhat, this research is hoped to eventually lead to a book or other form or publication on Hat Corp. history!)
Hagiographic or not, thanks for posting this invaluable resource, bk.
Brad
Chronologically, it sounds like this was during the 1860s and '70s, but I wonder how that translates into the '30s and '40s? As we have seen, by mid-century, the major hat companies kept their prices within the range of their competitors', so the pricepoint seems to be negligible by that time.
By Everyman's hat, I mean not that every man could afford one, but the idea that every man owned one. Yes, this isn't true, but Stetson sales were higher than their closest competitor, and the name Stetson has come to be synonymous with "hat," at least in this country. Every cowboy hat is a Stetson, every fedora is a Stetson, and so forth. Not in reality, but in public perception. This didn't happen overnight, but over the course of the last century plus.
Stetson as a status symbol is an interesting thought. Perhaps it started out that way, but sheer volume seems to have eventually pushed it into the realm of mass culture. Since Stetson "set out to popularise hats of intrinsic value," I can only conclude that John Cavanagh was following his lead, positioning his own brand as the status symbol that it became in mid-century.
(There is a brief document at the NYPL on the marketing of Cavanagh hats that should answer some questions, but the NYPL won't copy it for my research, thinking it could still be in copyright, even though HATCO has told me they don't believe they own the copyright to the documents. If anyone in NYC would like to help an impoverished historian out, I could make it worth your while!
And to keep this on-topic somewhat, this research is hoped to eventually lead to a book or other form or publication on Hat Corp. history!)Hagiographic or not, thanks for posting this invaluable resource, bk.
Brad
Baron Kurtz
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Brad Bowers said:(There is a brief document at the NYPL on the marketing of Cavanagh hats that should answer some questions, but the NYPL won't copy it for my research, thinking it could still be in copyright, even though HATCO has told me they don't believe they own the copyright to the documents. If anyone in NYC would like to help an impoverished historian out, I could make it worth your while!
Hagiographic or not, thanks for posting this invaluable resource, bk.
Brad
I'm afraid that you need to inform NYPL about copyright law. It is legal for a library to copy a document (particularly one that is old) for someone for their own private consumption (particularly when this consumption is research based). This is how science academics get their papers. It would only be illegal if you were to want to reproduce and sell the document in question. Furthermore the NYPL need to be reminded of their public service purpose - to disseminate information. Such obstacles to the free dissemination of information are one of the main reasons public libraries are dying on their arses.
Will NYPL not allow an interlibrary loan so you can copy it yourself? Maybe PM me the details and i'll see what academic pressure i can bring to bear and get them to lend it to me
Brad Bowers said:
An interesting anecdote of my own. I was on a pub crawl for charity in Indiana and had invited a group of friends. The husband of a good friend saw my hat hanging on a coat hook and plucked it off. When he saw it was a Stetson he acted in a markedly deferential way towards the hat. His family are ranchers from South Dakota. It seems that the "Stetson" brand retains its allure in "the West" to this day.
bk
Brad Bowers
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Here is what NYPL had to say to me about jumping through hoops:
So I tried tracking down anyone with any vested interest in any Hat Corporation documents published around 1940 - which should be in the public domain, but there is always the chance the copyright was renewed at a certain time there was a change in copyright laws (I forget off the top of my head what year that was, but it was in the 1970s).
Following the corporate name trail, I found one company is in Scandanavia, as I recall, and another is in Asia. I tried, unsuccessfully through e-mail, to find out if they hold the copyrights to the documents. As you would expect, no one answered my queries.
I spoke to Gary Rosenthal at HATCO, and he didn't believe they had the copyrights to the documents, just the rights to the brand name. If anyone would have the most say regarding Hat Corporation of America rights, it would be HATCO.
At that point, we moved from Utah back to Colorado, and I forgot about the matter until just recently. A letter explaining all this to NYPL could perhaps be considered my due diligence, but you never can tell. With their copy and shipping rates, though, it seemed like highway robbery to pay that much for a document that is only 11 pages long. That's par for the course in research.
Yep, that's what I'm talking about.
Bartenders, I hope we haven't run the thread too farfftopic: .
Brad
NYPL said:
So I tried tracking down anyone with any vested interest in any Hat Corporation documents published around 1940 - which should be in the public domain, but there is always the chance the copyright was renewed at a certain time there was a change in copyright laws (I forget off the top of my head what year that was, but it was in the 1970s).
Following the corporate name trail, I found one company is in Scandanavia, as I recall, and another is in Asia. I tried, unsuccessfully through e-mail, to find out if they hold the copyrights to the documents. As you would expect, no one answered my queries.
I spoke to Gary Rosenthal at HATCO, and he didn't believe they had the copyrights to the documents, just the rights to the brand name. If anyone would have the most say regarding Hat Corporation of America rights, it would be HATCO.
At that point, we moved from Utah back to Colorado, and I forgot about the matter until just recently. A letter explaining all this to NYPL could perhaps be considered my due diligence, but you never can tell. With their copy and shipping rates, though, it seemed like highway robbery to pay that much for a document that is only 11 pages long. That's par for the course in research.
Baron Kurtz said:
Yep, that's what I'm talking about.
Bartenders, I hope we haven't run the thread too far
fftopic: .Brad
Baron Kurtz said:
According to this, it should have been called something else. The link seems to have died, but this once appeared (and might still) on the town of Bristol's site. As in the cases Mallory and Knox, the founder's story seems to have been romanticized to the point of a comic book hero. It sounds more like Stetson became a master of marketing, and was willing to accept the minimal losses of a patent suit as a cost of doing a business that was growing exponentially.
Lefty said:
these should be in this thread.
Lefty said:The images are from Amazon, just to show the covers, while the links are to archive.org. I've downloaded both pdf files and can't wait to read the Stetson book. I'll probably leaf through the chemistry book, but I don't expect to understand most of it.
(I just started the Stetson book as a flip book, which works very well and beats the heck out of scrolling.)
The chemistry of hat manufacturing; lectures delivered before the Hat Manufacturers' Association (1906)
A little journey to the home of John B. Stetson (1916, c1911)
Looking through some of my hat books, a little piece of info. from this one struck me. I don't know if anyone remembers the Borsalino crown that was on ebay, probably around six months ago. It had no brim or sweat; it was just the crown and looked like this:
Well, it was sort of an employee uniform at Borsalino.
Well, it was sort of an employee uniform at Borsalino.
Lefty said:I posted this in the Borso Brotherhood, but it seems to fit well here as well.
It's one of the cheapest and, while one of the very few books that has any information on Borsalino, least worthwhile books I own.
-But for $2, it's also one of the cheapest.
*Note that there are 2 books with this title.
I'm glad I never bought this book, when it can be downloaded or read for free, right here. If you're not planning to start your own hatting business, there isn't much to it.
The Stetson Century
I searched and didn't see this posted anywhere. Free to read online.
Enjoy
B
The Stetson Century
Also a Historical Society research paper on the Stetson Factory.
Stetson Factory
I searched and didn't see this posted anywhere. Free to read online.
Enjoy
B
The Stetson Century
Also a Historical Society research paper on the Stetson Factory.
Stetson Factory
Brad Bowers
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Lefty, is there a year on that book? I tried backing out through the URL, but quickly got lost trying to find the link for it.
Thanks for posting this, BTW.
Brad
Thanks for posting this, BTW.
Brad
HarpPlayerGene
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Lefty said:Looking through some of my hat books, a little piece of info. from this one struck me. I don't know if anyone remembers the Borsalino crown that was on ebay, probably around six months ago. It had no brim or sweat; it was just the crown and looked like this:
Personally, I like that one a LOT.