I have an inherited Borsalino from the 50's/early 60's, that needs a new sweatband. I'd like to find a reputable repair shop that can replace the sweatband with a logo stamped , accurate (within reason) Borsalino sweat band. I am more interested in wearing and enjoying the hat, than any Archival-quality, Era-specific restoration- I just don't want to do anything the would obviously lessen its value. I saw a previous thread where a restoration job completely removed the Borsalino Marque from the hat. I would like to avoid that... Although I will send the hat anywhere for proper work, I try to patronize the local guys whenever possible (or at least as local as is possible!). I reside in Boston, where Hat-makers/ Milliners appear to be an exstinct breed....... so tell me your prefered Hat-makers, and what an expected cost might be. Thanks!
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Looking for expert repair on a Borsalino
- Thread starter elcraft
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You may be in for quite the challenge. I'm guessing that your Borsalino has what we typically call an "unreeded" sweatband, meaning that the sweatband is of one piece of leather sewn directly to the felt hat body, as opposed to the reeded type of sweatband, which has the leather attached to another piece which encases a reed, which these days is usually made of something akin to wide-gauge fishing line. The material (synthetic leather, often) encasing the reed is what gets sewn to the felt.
Problem is, to reattach those unreeded types would require either a piece of machinery that's apparently scarce these days or the skills of a micro-surgeon.
I've had the same problem myself. I like to preserve as much of a vintage hat's provenance as I can, and often much of it resides on the original sweatband. But I want a hat I can wear as well, and if that original sweatband is coming loose, well ...
I've heard that some sweatband makers may be receptive to turning an unreeded band into a reeded one by attaching it to the (new) second piece. And I've heard rumors that someone out there in the sometimes mysterious world of hat making can actually reattach an unreeded band directly to the felt, but my investigations have yet to disclose who that person is.
Thanks for bringing up this subject, elcraft. I wish us all luck in solving this problem.
All this is assuming that the reason you wish to replace the sweatband is because it is coming loose. If it is because the leather is dried out but is still intact, there are leather treatments (Lexol comes to mind) that may be of some help. If the leather is torn in a spot or two, say, but otherwise OK, patching it with first-aid tape from behind might work. But if it's just plain disintegrating, well, perhaps someone out there has a thoroughly trashed Borsalino that just happens to have a decent enough sweatband he'd be willing to part with. But if it's a thoroughly trashed out vintage Borsalino, it probably has an unreeded sweatband, which would put us right back at where we started.
Problem is, to reattach those unreeded types would require either a piece of machinery that's apparently scarce these days or the skills of a micro-surgeon.
I've had the same problem myself. I like to preserve as much of a vintage hat's provenance as I can, and often much of it resides on the original sweatband. But I want a hat I can wear as well, and if that original sweatband is coming loose, well ...
I've heard that some sweatband makers may be receptive to turning an unreeded band into a reeded one by attaching it to the (new) second piece. And I've heard rumors that someone out there in the sometimes mysterious world of hat making can actually reattach an unreeded band directly to the felt, but my investigations have yet to disclose who that person is.
Thanks for bringing up this subject, elcraft. I wish us all luck in solving this problem.
All this is assuming that the reason you wish to replace the sweatband is because it is coming loose. If it is because the leather is dried out but is still intact, there are leather treatments (Lexol comes to mind) that may be of some help. If the leather is torn in a spot or two, say, but otherwise OK, patching it with first-aid tape from behind might work. But if it's just plain disintegrating, well, perhaps someone out there has a thoroughly trashed Borsalino that just happens to have a decent enough sweatband he'd be willing to part with. But if it's a thoroughly trashed out vintage Borsalino, it probably has an unreeded sweatband, which would put us right back at where we started.
Reeded/un-reeded?
I took a closer look at the Borsalino, after reading your explaination. The sweatband appears to be attached to an "accordian pleated" or "crimped" ribbon about 1/2 inch wide. Is this the "reeding" you are describing?
I am familiar with the Lexol product, form other applications and situatons. It is the finest leather preservative and softener/conditioner I have ever worked with. However, since the head band is cracking into smaller pieces, will the use of first aid tape really work? If I try this route (as it appears to be the only option available to save the original liner), should I attempt to stabilze the headband with the tape first, and then apply the Lexol or should I apply the Lexol first? I am afraid that the Lexol will affect the adhesive on the tape adversely. Perhaps there is a better brand (your suggestion?) of first aid tape to use for this situation.
Any further help in this attempt would be greatly appreciated.
Thanx,
Elcraft
I took a closer look at the Borsalino, after reading your explaination. The sweatband appears to be attached to an "accordian pleated" or "crimped" ribbon about 1/2 inch wide. Is this the "reeding" you are describing?
I am familiar with the Lexol product, form other applications and situatons. It is the finest leather preservative and softener/conditioner I have ever worked with. However, since the head band is cracking into smaller pieces, will the use of first aid tape really work? If I try this route (as it appears to be the only option available to save the original liner), should I attempt to stabilze the headband with the tape first, and then apply the Lexol or should I apply the Lexol first? I am afraid that the Lexol will affect the adhesive on the tape adversely. Perhaps there is a better brand (your suggestion?) of first aid tape to use for this situation.
Any further help in this attempt would be greatly appreciated.
Thanx,
Elcraft
Rick Blaine
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Rather than use first aid/bandage tape...
... may I suggest instead using 100% acid-free linen tape of the sort that is used to hinge prints in mats for framing. Any frame shop should be able to sell you some, if not look at a place like light impressions dot com or a similar art conservators supply house... my .o2.
... may I suggest instead using 100% acid-free linen tape of the sort that is used to hinge prints in mats for framing. Any frame shop should be able to sell you some, if not look at a place like light impressions dot com or a similar art conservators supply house... my .o2.
Kevin Popejoy
One of the Regulars
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elcraft said:
Here's a link to the hat service I would likely use for something like this:
http://www.optimohats.com/hatcare.htm
Kevin
Kabuto, you are mistaken.
Wow, My first posting and I'm flamed! Actually, I guess someone might be able to "read" an effort to attach a "forged" sweatband into my post, but I have been contacting Borsalino dealers to see if a genuine replacement sweatband is possible to be used in their repair of the hat. My initial posting indicated that my intention is to restore and preserve the hat "without obviously lessen it's value" (as a counterfeit or forged sweatband would do) as best possible. I also clearly stated that my intention was to wear and enjoy the hat -I have no intention of selling it as some sort of counterfeit or forgery. It is a cherished heirloom!
I am familiar with the acid-free linen tape used in fine art framing and for archival bookbinding (thanks Rick Blaine); but this still doesn't help me with the order of the restoration,i.e. Lexol on the leather first or the linen tape first. Would you also recommend acid free paste, in addition to the tape? I appreciate the help offered, as I'd prefer to not put in a non-Borsalino sweatband.
Thanx
Elcraft
Wow, My first posting and I'm flamed! Actually, I guess someone might be able to "read" an effort to attach a "forged" sweatband into my post, but I have been contacting Borsalino dealers to see if a genuine replacement sweatband is possible to be used in their repair of the hat. My initial posting indicated that my intention is to restore and preserve the hat "without obviously lessen it's value" (as a counterfeit or forged sweatband would do) as best possible. I also clearly stated that my intention was to wear and enjoy the hat -I have no intention of selling it as some sort of counterfeit or forgery. It is a cherished heirloom!
I am familiar with the acid-free linen tape used in fine art framing and for archival bookbinding (thanks Rick Blaine); but this still doesn't help me with the order of the restoration,i.e. Lexol on the leather first or the linen tape first. Would you also recommend acid free paste, in addition to the tape? I appreciate the help offered, as I'd prefer to not put in a non-Borsalino sweatband.
Thanx
Elcraft
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Try not to let it get under your skin, elcraft. I mean really, would we level a charge of forgery against the owner of, say, a '67 Mustang if he were to replace a rusted-out quarter panel with a rust-free one salvaged from another '67 Mustang? It's your hat, man. Just so long as you don't mislead any would-be purchaser as to its provenance, there's no deception whatsoever.
I hold on to the old sweatbands I replace, unless they are just plain beyond salvation. I can't reattach the unreeded types, but I maintain hope that I'll either find someone to attach those old sweats to that piece that holds the reed (which is called the "reed tape," I've been reminded) or I'll figure out how to do it myself. I have (for instance) an unlined vintage Stetson Stratoliner that came to me with its unreeded sweatband coming loose and showing other signs of long-term use. I've since refurbished it, and that involved replacing the sweatband. So now it's a Stetson Stratoliner with nothing that says it is. The label that was once on the inside top of the crown is long gone, and the sweatband resides in my box of hat parts that might get reused someday.
If I were to reuse that sweatband after attaching it to a reed tape, well, there's no deception there. Nor would there be any deception in using a sweatband from another Stratoliner (some Strats came from the factory with reeded sweatbands, by the way). Hell, there's no deception even if I were to put in a sweatband salvaged from an old Knox or Dobbs or Mallory, unless I present it as actually being a Knox or a Dobbs or a Mallory. But I wouldn't do that. It would just be my old hat with a sweatband salvaged from another old hat.
I hold on to the old sweatbands I replace, unless they are just plain beyond salvation. I can't reattach the unreeded types, but I maintain hope that I'll either find someone to attach those old sweats to that piece that holds the reed (which is called the "reed tape," I've been reminded) or I'll figure out how to do it myself. I have (for instance) an unlined vintage Stetson Stratoliner that came to me with its unreeded sweatband coming loose and showing other signs of long-term use. I've since refurbished it, and that involved replacing the sweatband. So now it's a Stetson Stratoliner with nothing that says it is. The label that was once on the inside top of the crown is long gone, and the sweatband resides in my box of hat parts that might get reused someday.
If I were to reuse that sweatband after attaching it to a reed tape, well, there's no deception there. Nor would there be any deception in using a sweatband from another Stratoliner (some Strats came from the factory with reeded sweatbands, by the way). Hell, there's no deception even if I were to put in a sweatband salvaged from an old Knox or Dobbs or Mallory, unless I present it as actually being a Knox or a Dobbs or a Mallory. But I wouldn't do that. It would just be my old hat with a sweatband salvaged from another old hat.
Reeding ?
Thanks for the quick reply! Does my description of the "accordian pleated " ribbon under the sweatband sound like "reeding" to you? I am still a little in the dark as to whether this hat is actually reeded, or not. If I should choose to replace the sweatband with a non-Borsalino sweatband, what is a suitable replcement? Is "Roan Leather" what is called for? Since there is a label in the center of the crown, I don't think the hat would completely loose its identity as a Borsalino- only that its sweatband had been replaced. Oh yeah, I neglected to thank you, Mr. Popejoy for the URL on Optimo- Mille Grazie!
Elcraft
Thanks for the quick reply! Does my description of the "accordian pleated " ribbon under the sweatband sound like "reeding" to you? I am still a little in the dark as to whether this hat is actually reeded, or not. If I should choose to replace the sweatband with a non-Borsalino sweatband, what is a suitable replcement? Is "Roan Leather" what is called for? Since there is a label in the center of the crown, I don't think the hat would completely loose its identity as a Borsalino- only that its sweatband had been replaced. Oh yeah, I neglected to thank you, Mr. Popejoy for the URL on Optimo- Mille Grazie!
Elcraft
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I took a few minutes for a closer look at the sweatbands in some of the old Borsalinos cluttering up this dump, and I think I see in my lightweight foldable one (you oughta see the little box it came in) just what you are talking about. There is indeed a section at the front of the crown, where the wearer's forehead would be, that has under the sweatband a section of accordion-pleat-like material about half an inch tall and maybe six inches long. That material is a dark grey color and stitched over it (between it and the leather of the sweatband) is an off-white strip of canvas-like cloth. Sound like yours?
Oh, my foldable Borsalino has an unreeded sweatband, elcraft. Not a hopeful sign, I fear. (Not having a reed is part of what makes it foldable.)
Just curious -- what does the sweatband have embossed on it, besides the Borsalino logo? A retailer's logo, maybe? Or a model name? What color is it? (The sweatband leather, I mean.) And is there a size tag in the hat? Is it perhaps in a Punti size (which would make it a somewhat lower number than what you would find using the sizing conventions we're accustomed to)?
Sounds like you may have quite the hat there. Are you able to post a picture or two?
Oh, my foldable Borsalino has an unreeded sweatband, elcraft. Not a hopeful sign, I fear. (Not having a reed is part of what makes it foldable.)
Just curious -- what does the sweatband have embossed on it, besides the Borsalino logo? A retailer's logo, maybe? Or a model name? What color is it? (The sweatband leather, I mean.) And is there a size tag in the hat? Is it perhaps in a Punti size (which would make it a somewhat lower number than what you would find using the sizing conventions we're accustomed to)?
Sounds like you may have quite the hat there. Are you able to post a picture or two?
mineral
One of the Regulars
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elcraft said:
Elcraft, I know this might sound very silly, but have you tried giving Borsalino a call? They have a phone number listed at their website:
http://www.borsalino.com/
(Click on the English section, go to "Borsalino in the World", and then click on New York City ....)
I am deeply curious about whether anyone can help you with the problem and do keep us updated.
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I have period repairs on two '20s era hats with unreeded sweatbands, both of which, at some point, had the stitching go bad.
They took some thin leather, folded like a hinge, and using some kind of glue, glued that piece of leather to the backside of the sweatband in the damaged part, and the other side to the body of the hat. It's not pretty, but it means that the sweatband is attached in that area, and still flexes. It's almost like adding a section of reeded sweatband, only without the reeding, if that makes any sense.
They took some thin leather, folded like a hinge, and using some kind of glue, glued that piece of leather to the backside of the sweatband in the damaged part, and the other side to the body of the hat. It's not pretty, but it means that the sweatband is attached in that area, and still flexes. It's almost like adding a section of reeded sweatband, only without the reeding, if that makes any sense.
jpdesign
Vendor
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I have the machine but can't find needles, though I have tuned up some promising leads.
ideaguy
One Too Many
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Following Tony B's remarks- I too save bits and pieces-and entire hats-just for the chance to refurbish a good hat myself; I own the the hat, I wear it, and it
doesn't matter to me if it's not 100% pure. Rather have a hat I can keep wearing than be a purist.
And foldable Borsalino's---I'll pay a handsome reward for one in 7 3/8 or 7 1/2;
in any color but Black; and I do mean handsome reward!!
doesn't matter to me if it's not 100% pure. Rather have a hat I can keep wearing than be a purist.
And foldable Borsalino's---I'll pay a handsome reward for one in 7 3/8 or 7 1/2;
in any color but Black; and I do mean handsome reward!!
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I'd be tempted to take you up on that, ideaguy. But I kinda like having this one just for the sake of having it. I rarely wear it, because its dimensions just don't work that well with mine. (My wife says otherwise, God bless her.) But just knowing it's here warms my avaricious heart.
Except for its color (it's a dark enough gray that a person might just as well call it black) it pretty well fits your criteria. It's a Punti 5 1/2, which converts to something like a 7 3/8. Close to it, anyway. It was such a poorly listed eBay auction that I was the sole bidder. (The seller said it was a woman's hat, made in France, of wool, and the tease photo was of the little triangular box it comes in.) Got it for 10 bucks, plus shipping.
I know, I know, I'm making you sick. Gloating doesn't become me, et cetera. Bargain hunter that I am, though, I'm no match to our own dinerman. The deals that kid gets never cease to amaze. It would take the assistance of large-caliber weapons for most of us mere mortals to even approach his level of success.
Speaking of dinerman ... Now that's an interesting approach to sweatband repair. I can envision how that would work. It might not be particularly "pretty," but it's on the inside of the hat, for crying out loud. And it might well be argued that it contributes to the old lid's character.
Except for its color (it's a dark enough gray that a person might just as well call it black) it pretty well fits your criteria. It's a Punti 5 1/2, which converts to something like a 7 3/8. Close to it, anyway. It was such a poorly listed eBay auction that I was the sole bidder. (The seller said it was a woman's hat, made in France, of wool, and the tease photo was of the little triangular box it comes in.) Got it for 10 bucks, plus shipping.
I know, I know, I'm making you sick. Gloating doesn't become me, et cetera. Bargain hunter that I am, though, I'm no match to our own dinerman. The deals that kid gets never cease to amaze. It would take the assistance of large-caliber weapons for most of us mere mortals to even approach his level of success.
Speaking of dinerman ... Now that's an interesting approach to sweatband repair. I can envision how that would work. It might not be particularly "pretty," but it's on the inside of the hat, for crying out loud. And it might well be argued that it contributes to the old lid's character.
The "Needy" Borsalino
Gentlemen;
Now I am really glad that I've posted to this forum! I attempted to find The Borsalino Official site on my search engine, but for some reason, all that came up were vendors. I have since sent an email to Borsalino America (thanks, Mineral), I will keep the forum updated about the reply.
Tonyb, you have accurately described my hat; it is a foldable, apparently, in Greenish Brown 7 1/8. It has, indeed, that 5" or 6" accordian "psuedo-reeding" on the front of the hat. I neglected to mention that I did find a hatter/millener in Cranston, Rhode Island, who reattached the front of the sweat band about a year ago. Her work was good, but the cracking only started this winter. Perhaps Dinerman could direct me to the provider of his "period" repairs.
The idea of "gluing" to the felt makes me a little uneasy, but I really want to wear this Hat! Perhaps jpdesign can contact me, if and when, he or she obtains the needles to equip the machine......
Thankyou to you all, who've replied- it gives me hope that this repair might even be possible.
Regards,
Elcraft
Gentlemen;
Now I am really glad that I've posted to this forum! I attempted to find The Borsalino Official site on my search engine, but for some reason, all that came up were vendors. I have since sent an email to Borsalino America (thanks, Mineral), I will keep the forum updated about the reply.
Tonyb, you have accurately described my hat; it is a foldable, apparently, in Greenish Brown 7 1/8. It has, indeed, that 5" or 6" accordian "psuedo-reeding" on the front of the hat. I neglected to mention that I did find a hatter/millener in Cranston, Rhode Island, who reattached the front of the sweat band about a year ago. Her work was good, but the cracking only started this winter. Perhaps Dinerman could direct me to the provider of his "period" repairs.
The idea of "gluing" to the felt makes me a little uneasy, but I really want to wear this Hat! Perhaps jpdesign can contact me, if and when, he or she obtains the needles to equip the machine......
Thankyou to you all, who've replied- it gives me hope that this repair might even be possible.
Regards,
Elcraft
Further Info for Tonyb on the "Needy" Borsalino
Yeah, I forgot to concur on all of Tonyb's description of the foldable. It does have the canvas strip over the accordian thingy. As it is marked with a white tag with blue markings, 7 1/8. I must assume it is not a punti size designation. On the left side of the sweatband there is the classic gold logo stamping "Borsalino- Grand Prix. Paris 1900" and (in English) "Made in Italy by Original House Founded in 1857" stamping. There is no retailer's logo. The sweatband is a chocolate brown color. There is a slighly orange-ish light brown silk lining with the "Qualita' Supiore Alessandria" logo on the underside of the crown. There is a cloudy, plasticy Cellophane looking sheet covering the logo-ed silk under the crown. My best guess is it from the Fifties or early Sixties. The Hat band around the crown is about 1 1/2" wide "woven" strip in green-brown and gold yarns -almost "Macrame" looking in its textural weave. The best way to describe the shape and proportions of the hat is to look at a bottle of the Italian beer "Birra Moretti" (http://www.morettibeer.com/). That is pretty much what it looks like, ecepting the more textural hatband. I offer the descriptions because I have no current means of posting a photo of the hat
Hopefully, this is an adequate description for those of you interested..
Regards,
Elcraft
Yeah, I forgot to concur on all of Tonyb's description of the foldable. It does have the canvas strip over the accordian thingy. As it is marked with a white tag with blue markings, 7 1/8. I must assume it is not a punti size designation. On the left side of the sweatband there is the classic gold logo stamping "Borsalino- Grand Prix. Paris 1900" and (in English) "Made in Italy by Original House Founded in 1857" stamping. There is no retailer's logo. The sweatband is a chocolate brown color. There is a slighly orange-ish light brown silk lining with the "Qualita' Supiore Alessandria" logo on the underside of the crown. There is a cloudy, plasticy Cellophane looking sheet covering the logo-ed silk under the crown. My best guess is it from the Fifties or early Sixties. The Hat band around the crown is about 1 1/2" wide "woven" strip in green-brown and gold yarns -almost "Macrame" looking in its textural weave. The best way to describe the shape and proportions of the hat is to look at a bottle of the Italian beer "Birra Moretti" (http://www.morettibeer.com/). That is pretty much what it looks like, ecepting the more textural hatband. I offer the descriptions because I have no current means of posting a photo of the hat
Hopefully, this is an adequate description for those of you interested..
Regards,
Elcraft
ideaguy
One Too Many
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Tony- yer killin' me...anyone out there wants to part with a foldable Borsalino-
please let me know-7 3/8 or 7 1/2, and have plenty of hats to trade...[huh]
please let me know-7 3/8 or 7 1/2, and have plenty of hats to trade...[huh]
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Any new information on sweatband replacement with authentic Borsalino leather? I have an old Torino that needs help.
Cliff
Not that I have heard. Most renovation services use new, generic sweats. Same for liners.
Your best bet is to source a sweat in your size from a beater Borso & provide it with the hat for service.
I have quite a few restored Stetsons that no longer carry the marque.....
The Wiser Hatter
I'll Lock Up
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https://www.henrythehatterdetroit.com/
I have seen some people get broso sweats from
Henry the hatter
I have seen some people get broso sweats from
Henry the hatter
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