New Generation Brims With Anxiety Over Hat Etiquette

[Tiller]

I'm personally fascinated by the differences in cultures from location to location. In comparison to my peers here in Albuquerque, I am actually considered rather socially conservative, as I believe in a lot of social behaviors and signs of respect that many others in my generation turn away from. However, I do know that on the opposite side of that coin, I'm also considered somewhat socially liberal when in comparison to other places and cultures.

I honestly cannot say how a woman would respond to a gentleman removing his hat in her presence in an elevator here in Albuquerque. I've never witnessed it, nor have I heard anything along those lines. I guess the only example I can go off of is the removal of a hat upon sitting down for dinner in a public place. I do this regularly when eating with others, and many people always ask me why I do that; even members of older generations. They find it odd. I guess it's just the overall majority in regards to liberal social views here.

I hear what both you and JLee are saying. Their are plenty of things I simply don't understand on a knee jerk reaction level, when I read some post (such as many of the dumbest comments post before it was locked), I've never been bullied for how I dress, or for what is on my head. People rarely walk up to someone around here and starts insulting them, and even fewer still would do it to an absolute stranger.

Now don't get me wrong the Adirondacks aren't some Mecca of vintage culture, but it is a rural era, and traditions die hard here. Their are still farmers who wear hats here (and not just ball caps), smoke pipes, hunt, fish, trap, and have other "older" hobbies. We also have a fairly large Mennonite and Amish Community (talk about being old fashion lol ).

We also have Fort Drum, tons of downstaters (most people from New York understand the upstate, downstate divide), and many international companies here. So their is quite a mix of the old and the new, but manners are still valued here by a decent percentage of the population. Here I think it's almost second nature for people to remove their hats when going into a restaurant that isn't the local dinner (after all the local dinner is basically a place to talk about sports and politics, nothing to honorable there lol).

One thing I think we can all agree on, the world is crazy, so thank God for places like the Fedora Lounge were we can solve all its problems, or die drinking them away lol. Next round is on me.

 

[Brent Hutto]

Reading it reminds me of the no-hat-indoors policy at my old high school.

This guy in my class in high school got a job as a crossing guard, mornings and afternoons at the middle-school next door. As a joke some of his friends bought him a hat from Radio Shack that was a yellow helmet with a rotating blue light on top and a button you could push to make a siren-like sound.

So he wears in the halls between classes for a couple days, running the light and occasionally hooting the siren. By the end of the week a memo comes down from the school principal. No hats are to be worn inside the school.

Petty fascists.

 

[danofarlington]

I honestly cannot say how a woman would respond to a gentleman removing his hat in her presence in an elevator here in Albuquerque. I've never witnessed it, nor have I heard anything along those lines. .

Regarding that particular gesture, I think that today, it would be quite odd. Those old chivalric customs stem from an earlier day when everything was different; women on a pedestal, to be protected and patronized, and all that. Now, women want to be one of the guys. I think removing your hat in the presence of a lady on an elevator or elsewhere would appear to be reaching back for a wished-for former era, unconnected with today's society. No one would be asking you to do that, or appreciate it if you did. On the other hand it would be natural to remove your hat for some other reason, I think, like a restaurant, church, movie or concert, or just to be less official-looking, but to make gender-specific hat removal gestures would be weird now I think.

 

[donnc]

Oh, goody, a hat etiquette thread!

Wearing a hat is an action, more so than with most articles of clothing. Put it on, take it off, adjust angle as Emily Post's descendant mentions - a dynamic, rather than static, phenomenon. I think someone who goes to great trouble and expense to round up a nice hat, finds the perfect spot on his head for it, and then just leaves it there like it was sewn to his scalp, could be missing out on some aspects of hat wearing. On the other hand, I think someone who plucks his hat off or puts it back on in response to some version of social codes may be missing out on it too. You're communicating, in some sense, with other people, not trying to satisfy some Wrathful Etiquette God. Just like it's probably a good idea to say "excuse me" after treading on someone's toes, but only the most inept need a rule book for guidance on when to say "excuse me" and so forth - you do best to use your own words, and your own feel for the situation.

 

[AlterEgo]

The restaurant Houton's http://www.hillstone.com/#/restaurants/houstons/ has a strict policy of no hats.If a customer is wearing a hat at the table the waiters and waitresses are instructed to tell them to take it off.

Thank you for bringing up Houston's policy, BlackBrim, yet that restaurant in my city provides no place to put your hat, or coat or umbrella, for that matter.

I posted this story on another thread almost three years ago, but it's right on point, so here it is again:

Case study:

My mother recently took me and my two school-age children to a Houston's, a nice, upper-middle chain restaurant, for my and my daughter's birthday. It was a cold and rainy evening, and its being a Saturday night and we having no reservations, we had to wait almost an hour for a table. Bustling with a steady stream of customers entering and exiting through the two sets of double doors in the small lobby/waiting area, it was cold and breezy there, so the four of us kept our coats on, and I left my beret on, as well. Even had the inclement weather not been a factor, I believe it is entirely proper to leave on hats and outer garments in this part of a restaurant if the customer so chooses, unless the establishment offers a coat/hat/umbrella check, which Houston's does not.

When I first approached the hostess, a gal in her late teens, maybe early 20s, to get on the waiting list, I noticed her eyes lingered on my beret, an authentic Basque one, in camel, that I got from the extraordinarily helpful folks at Stark & Legum, in Norfolk, VA. It's not unusual for people to stare at me when I wear any of my berets, for you rarely see men here in the Southeastern U.S. donning such headgear, but her body language and the expression on her face‚ if they were related to the beret at all‚ suggested she was not happy. She gave the leather Ghurka bag on my shoulder a disapproving glare, as well. A Type 1 diabetic, I keep my glucose meter, other testing supplies, insulin, emergency food, etc. in that bag, and it goes everywhere I do.

Anyway, when a table finally became available, she called my name and quickly ushered us back to it, a square four-top. Having helped my mom remove her coat, I was still standing assisting with her chair when the hostess said, "We ask that men remove their hats while dining with us."

Now, it was not only THAT she said this, but also the WAY she said it that I regarded as offensive. I concede that my hunger and the long, cold wait exacerbated my negative reaction, so I was more irritated by the comment than I usually would have been, yet I still feel her remark was entirely uncalled-for and crossed into the downright rude.

I was GOING to take off my trench coat and beret before I sat down, little Miss Tell-Me-The-Rules, but I was first attending to my elderly mother's coat and seating her, as any gentleman would, while my kids took off their jackets and hung them on the back of their chairs. Yes, I could have taken off my coat and hat first, but I was taught, ladies first, so that's what I did.

Having been to that same restaurant several times before and therefore knowing the scene, I was further annoyed by the fact that I'd INTENTIONALLY worn the beret. I could fold it up into the inside pocket of my coat and not have to worry with where to put a fedora, which I would have much preferred to wear to keep the rain off my face instead of the encumbrance of a bumbershoot. Since there were four of us, I anticipated there would be no spare seat in which to lay a fedora, which turned out to be the case.

I suppose I could have removed the beret as soon as the hostess escorted us back to the table. But, practically speaking, I was using one hand to hold the umbrella and the other to maneuver my shoulder bag to ensure it did not strike the heads of seated customers in the dark and crowded dining area the hostess whisked us through.

When she informed me of the hat policy, I simply said, "But, of course," tucked the beret in my coat pocket, took off the trench coat, slipped my scarf into the sleeve, and hung it on the back of the chair, noticing that both dragged on the carpet. I propped the wet umbrella precariously against the wall

I bit my tongue on what I really wanted to say:

"Given your strict policy but lack of a garment check or even hooks, where shall I put my hat, not to mention my coat, scarf, and umbrella?"

"I beg your pardon, but would you be so kind as to permit me to seat my mother before I attend to my own garments?"

"Oh, thank you so much for reminding me of your customer dress code. It's your employee dress code that I'm curious about. May I please see the manager (glancing down at deep cleavage visible in the plunging V of the sweater she had on)?"

Even had I sat down and left the beret on, if the policy had to be enforced, the courteous way to communicate it would have been for the hostess to politely whisper it in my ear, rather than embarrass me by announcing it in front of my party and all the other customers nearby. Responding to a breech of manners by transgressing social etiquette is never appropriate.

In the final analysis, I don't think this incident had much to do with Houston's hat policy; rather, I believe the hostess just did not like me from the get-go. I was well and conservatively dressed that evening, wearing navy blazer, a new tie, gabardine trousers, and tassel loafers, but the beret and the bag set me apart. Maybe she thought those were Bohemian and disliked anything out of the ordinary. Perhaps she associated those items with being gay (it would not be the first time)‚ not there's anything wrong with that, though I'm not‚ displaying her problem with homosexuality. Then again, she might have just been stressed out and venting on me.

I know this sounds like I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill, but when you take a specific situation like this one at Houston's and analyze it in detail for hat mannerliness, it can be instructive.

So, do you think I did the right thing? Why or why not? (I'll tell you later what my mother thought.)

Expanding to the general, WHEN is the proper time to remove one's hat in a wait-and-be-seated restaurant without a hat check? Is there an EXACT moment to take the hat off, such as when crossing the threshold into a home, or is there some leeway?

 

[danofarlington]

Expanding to the general, WHEN is the proper time to remove one's hat in a wait-and-be-seated restaurant without a hat check? Is there an EXACT moment to take the hat off, such as when crossing the threshold into a home, or is there some leeway?

Good question. In a restaurant, I usually take my hat off when sitting down at the table, after parading through the room with the hat on. I mean, what's the point of wearing a hat, let alone a good hat, if you don't intend to be seen in it? Is waiting until being seated to remove the hat wrong? Actually I think people should like that because it's more colorful than the normal clothing you see, and as long as you take the thing off pretty soon, nobody should be offended. Especially women like to look at what everybody's wearing, and they seem to notice hats more than men.

 

[Mid-fogey]

There have...

…been many, many hat etiquette threads over the years, as well as discussions over the problems caused by the fact that the modern public either doesn’t know the rules or has them all wrong (e.g. yes, you can wear a hat indoors sometimes).

Etiquette evolves over time. I’d love to see a rework of the older rules – which were developed in a time before automobiles and massive buildings.

 

[Tango Yankee]

I think removing your hat in the presence of a lady on an elevator or elsewhere would appear to be reaching back for a wished-for former era, unconnected with today's society. No one would be asking you to do that, or appreciate it if you did.

To each their own. I remove my hat on an elevator when there are women on board. If they are already there when I get on I take it off as I get on; of they board after I do I take it off then. I also remove it when I board an elevator with my wife.

Some notice, some do not. None have voiced disapproval, but some have voiced approval. My wife approves.

Funny thing about manners, be they old or new... they're usually done without being asked, and good manners are often not noticed but bad manners usually are.

Actually, I think some would apply your comment to any act that men (would have in the past) normally perform for a lady or only when a lady is present. Opening the car door and helping her in or out, walking on the street side when walking down the sidewalk, offering to carry packages, etcetera. Not for everyone anymore, but I will continue to do so because in my mind those are good manners. Whether or not anyone else does will not have any bearing on my own actions nor will I try to force anyone else to behave as I do. I merely set the example.

Regards,
Tom

 

[cptjeff]

Of course, your in San Fran, I'm in the Adirondack Mountains (if I told you exactly where 9/10 you'd have no idea). Our cultures couldn't be more different, unless you completely left the US. Almost everything I hear about San Fran I find to be absurd so why wouldn't you find things here equally odd. lol

It's still an absurd point, no matter the culture. To equate the neglect of removal of an article of clothing with physical violence simply does not withstand the test of reason.

 

[Tango Yankee]

I honestly cannot say how a woman would respond to a gentleman removing his hat in her presence in an elevator here in Albuquerque.

My guess is that they wouldn't necessarily realize that the gesture was in response to their presence unless it was somehow obvious--they may not even notice it at all other then they may think it odd for someone to remove a hat at all once it's on the head.lol

Cheers,
Tom

 

[jlee562]

It's still an absurd point, no matter the culture. To equate the neglect of removal of an article of clothing with physical violence simply does not withstand the test of reason.

That was really my point....I realize SF may represent what some regard as..."loose morals," but the statement seemed too hyperbolic to actually be taken seriously.

 

[ScionPI2005]

Case study:
...Anyway, when a table finally became available, she called my name and quickly ushered us back to it, a square four-top. Having helped my mom remove her coat, I was still standing assisting with her chair when the hostess said, "We ask that men remove their hats while dining with us."

Now, it was not only THAT she said this, but also the WAY she said it that I regarded as offensive. I concede that my hunger and the long, cold wait exacerbated my negative reaction, so I was more irritated by the comment than I usually would have been, yet I still feel her remark was entirely uncalled-for and crossed into the downright rude.

I bit my tongue on what I really wanted to say:

"Given your strict policy but lack of a garment check or even hooks, where shall I put my hat, not to mention my coat, scarf, and umbrella?"...

So, do you think I did the right thing? Why or why not? (I'll tell you later what my mother thought.)

Expanding to the general, WHEN is the proper time to remove one's hat in a wait-and-be-seated restaurant without a hat check? Is there an EXACT moment to take the hat off, such as when crossing the threshold into a home, or is there some leeway?

Honesty, I would find some of what the waitress did frustrating. I always remove my hat when eating with friends and family at a restaurant. That said, if a restaurant were to require male patrons to remove their hats without providing a space to safely put them while eating, I would be annoyed. When I go out and eat, I take off my hat out of my own free will and out of respect for the social setting, and I do my best to find a place to put it during the meal (which is sometimes in my lap, another vacant chair, or directly underneath my seat). For these situations, it is my choice to remove my hat and try to find the best place to put it. I think if a restaurant (or any public place) is going to mandate their patrons to remove their hat (or any other of their personal belongings) they need to provide the space to place them.


Tango Yankee, I do believe you are more than likely correct in that most would not observe the removal of a hat in the elevator as a direct response to the presence of a woman.

I do think my personal beliefs on the subject are more in line with danofarlington, as the removal of a hat in older days was gender specific. I find my personal hat etiquette to be more in line of showing etiquette towards the situation, or people in general, not just one person.

 

[Feraud]

Today, confusion over the rules of hat wearing is leading to some awkward situations.

Take Eric Soler of Hackensack, N.J. for instance, he took offense when he tried to enter a bar in Hoboken recently with a fedora atop his head, only to be told there was a no-hat policy.
"It just floored me," says the 38-year-old. "I said 'I'm not wearing a baseball cap or a ski hat, I'm wearing an $80 fedora!' He grudgingly obliged and held the hat in his hand all night.

There's your problem. Man thinks the cost of an item is a free pass to do whatever he wants.
My hat costs 80 dollars. I can wear it when ever, where ever I want. Grudgingly oblige me a river..

 

[AcridSaint]

Regarding that particular gesture, I think that today, it would be quite odd. Those old chivalric customs stem from an earlier day when everything was different; women on a pedestal, to be protected and patronized, and all that. Now, women want to be one of the guys. I think removing your hat in the presence of a lady on an elevator or elsewhere would appear to be reaching back for a wished-for former era, unconnected with today's society. No one would be asking you to do that, or appreciate it if you did. On the other hand it would be natural to remove your hat for some other reason, I think, like a restaurant, church, movie or concert, or just to be less official-looking, but to make gender-specific hat removal gestures would be weird now I think.

I don't see how this would be regarded in any ways other than indifferently or as polite. Most folks don't notice the gesture or know what it means, the few that do will most often appreciate it.

I hold doors for women, I open car doors for them too. In most cases, I don't let them pay when we are out together as a pair, even if we aren't on a "date". I also say please, thank you, yes sir, no sir, yes ma'am, miss etc. I don't do it because I'm trying to bring back the "olden days", I do it to be polite. I also keep my word when I give it and live up to all other duties I was taught a man has. If I offend someone just by being polite then I don't really care too much about their sensibilities.

I don't think that the majority of hat wearers of our persuasion really worry much about people thinking they are "weird".

 

[danofarlington]

I don't see how this would be regarded in any ways other than indifferently or as polite. Most folks don't notice the gesture or know what it means, the few that do will most often appreciate it.

I hold doors for women, I open car doors for them too. In most cases, I don't let them pay when we are out together as a pair, even if we aren't on a "date". I also say please, thank you, yes sir, no sir, yes ma'am, miss etc. I don't do it because I'm trying to bring back the "olden days", I do it to be polite. I also keep my word when I give it and live up to all other duties I was taught a man has. If I offend someone just by being polite then I don't really care too much about their sensibilities.

I don't think that the majority of hat wearers of our persuasion really worry much about people thinking they are "weird".

Oh, now, I didn't say anything about any of that. But taking off your hat for a woman, or tipping your hat, is what I was talking about, in my estimation would not register, and if it did, more likely than not would seem odd.

 

[ScionPI2005]

I don't see how this would be regarded in any ways other than indifferently or as polite. Most folks don't notice the gesture or know what it means, the few that do will most often appreciate it.

I hold doors for women, I open car doors for them too. In most cases, I don't let them pay when we are out together as a pair, even if we aren't on a "date". I also say please, thank you, yes sir, no sir, yes ma'am, miss etc. I don't do it because I'm trying to bring back the "olden days", I do it to be polite. I also keep my word when I give it and live up to all other duties I was taught a man has. If I offend someone just by being polite then I don't really care too much about their sensibilities.

I don't think that the majority of hat wearers of our persuasion really worry much about people thinking they are "weird".

I do all those things as well. Actually, when the opportunity presents itself, I do these for both men and women. It may just be me (and it is okay if it is ), but I see a difference between opening the door for someone, and tipping or removing your hat for them upon greeting.

 

[handlebar bart]

Regarding that particular gesture, I think that today, it would be quite odd. Those old chivalric customs stem from an earlier day when everything was different; women on a pedestal, to be protected and patronized, and all that. Now, women want to be one of the guys. I think removing your hat in the presence of a lady on an elevator or elsewhere would appear to be reaching back for a wished-for former era, unconnected with today's society. No one would be asking you to do that, or appreciate it if you did. On the other hand it would be natural to remove your hat for some other reason, I think, like a restaurant, church, movie or concert, or just to be less official-looking, but to make gender-specific hat removal gestures would be weird now I think.

Funny you mention that one. I make it a point to sit in the last row at the movies just so I don't need to take my hat off. (Don't want to stain my good hats with my popcorn buttery fingers )

 

[handlebar bart]

I do all those things as well. Actually, when the opportunity presents itself, I do these for both men and women. It may just be me (and it is okay if it is ), but I see a difference between opening the door for someone, and tipping or removing your hat for them upon greeting.

Nailed it.:eusa_clap I see thousands of hats; baseball hats, stocking hats, on and on; throughout the course of a week on the heads of people of all ages and have never seen someone doff a hat to a lady. It's outdated and unrelated to the common practice of holding the door open for the person behind you, male or female.

 

[W4ASZ]

Nailed it.:eusa_clap I see thousands of hats; baseball hats, stocking hats, on and on; throughout the course of a week on the heads of people of all ages and have never seen someone doff a hat to a lady. It's outdated and unrelated to the common practice of holding the door open for the person behind you, male or female.

I have to agree. I think that tipping the hat might be misinterpreted somehow. Having the door held open is universally appreciated.

 

[XPLSV]

I, personally, have kind of settled into the following: when I sit down in a restaurant, I place my hat somewhere other than my head. Order of preference would be a hook, a small shelf that may be adjacent to a booth, or on a seating area next to me. If I am stopping some place for a drink at a bar, the hat stays on my head. Off my head when I enter the front door of the church. At work, I wear it to me desk location.

I don't think I've ever had someone asking me to remove my hat...likely because I have removed it in places that expect such. I've never had a snide remark, some of that may be due to my size. I am surprised at the large number of compliments I receive, and the fact that they come from members of both sexes, all ages, and all races/ethnicities. This last one I generally attribute to the fact that the Golden Age hats have class that transcend the ages. I was a bit disappointed at the photos of hats that appeared in the WSJ article. I guess, to a certain extent, that is what is on the mass produced market these days...but when I have discussions with some of the younger generation that have an interest in hats, it is interesting that they generally seem to appreciate the styles of the 1940's, which is quite different from the narrow brims and short crowns that are produced today.

Bernie