vintage vs. new..

[MD11]

Not trying to stir the pot here, but I've read on this forum (and elsewhere) on a number of occasions the statement that "vintage hats are of better quality than new hats".. that sounds a bit too general for me.. I agree that many things that one buys today aren't made as well as they used to be.. 2/3's of this is the whole "Made in China" thing, and a lot of it is corporate cost cutting, etc..

I can think of a specific example where I am more of an expert, which is Martin Guitars.. Yes, today's finest Martins aren't as nice as a pre-war D45 or D28, but that's because those were made with now impossible to get grades of Mahogany, Spruce, and Rosewood..

So here is my question.. How is a 100% beaver felt hat today that cost from $500-$1000 any worse or inferior to a top of the range hat made in the 20's 30's or 40's? Are beavers not as good as they used to be? or is manufacturing today not as good?

give me details, I'm genuinely interested in knowing.

 

[Rick Blaine]

Long story (or at least part of it) short; hatters can no longer use mercuric oxides to "carrot" (I think this results in the "plumping" of the individual hair shafts) the beaver pelts. This leads to an apples and oranges situation where you are not really comparing two like objects.

Although, given the laxity of environmental regs in China & other parts of the developing world, I can't help but think some felt maker somewhere is still using these processes.

 

[MD11]

edited as per feltfan's post above..

 

[MAB1]

Fine hats are still being made today. No doubt about it. They just cost more now.

My 53+ year old ADAM Executive is made of the finest softest felt I've ever felt but, I read somewhere that lite soft felts came about as economical result of the Great Depression.

So... I'm confused about the term Pre-War. WWI maybe ???

 

[feltfan]

So would a hat like be nicer than a top of the line Stetson from today, in terms of the felt quality? I have to admit, the stitching on the sweatband is a cut above.

Please do not post active eBay auctions.

And given the number of threads on this subject,
it is hard not to see this as trolling.

 

[Rick Blaine]

So would a hat like be nicer than a top of the line Stetson from today, in terms of the felt quality? I have to admit, the stitching on the sweatband is a cut above.

I am really out of my depth here. Mr. Bowers or one of the more knowledgeable loungers will wade in here soon, but I think most here would agree with that general statement. I don't know if this example is a pre mercury ban felt, but it is lovely (careful about posting live auction links, BTW. You'll get your hands slapped) all would agree.

 

[MD11]

Please do not post active eBay auctions.

And given the number of threads on this subject,
it is hard not to see this as trolling.

Go away if you've got nothing to contribute please...

 

[MD11]

So it would appear that mercury is the key difference.. thanks. I'll have to research that process more.

I guess I'll go troll elsewhere now..

 

[scotrace]

Sorry MD11, please go back and read the FAQ. NO posting of live ebay auctions. And this topic is easily and fully explored elsewhere. Use the search function.

 

[MD11]

Sorry MD11, please go back and read the FAQ. NO posting of live ebay auctions. And this topic is easily and fully explored elsewhere. Use the search function.

I suppose the next time I join a message board I can read thru the entire FAQ's, sorry if I wasn't so thorough. But frankly I find it very unwelcoming of members to take a new guy's post and throw out accusations of intent when clearly I am neither selling the darn thing, nor am I trying to do anything but learn.. It smacks of combativeness and "in the know" elitism. I'm not new to message boards, and each one is different.. if this one doesn't allow ebay links, that's fine.. a polite note to ask me to edit it would be sufficient.. as for the search feature.. I did a search and I also checked the sticky posts.. I found no answer.

Maybe you can compose a better search phrase for me and post some links to these threads, I've had no luck with "Hat Quality Vintage" for example..

 

[scotrace]

You can search with google also.

A good thread to start.


Look around, get a feel for the place. We encourage searching and reviving old threads.

No offense meant, but you've asked a question that is best answered by plundering the considerable information to be found here. Welcome to The Fedora Lounge.

If you like your Adam, you're going to love an old Borsalino, or even a 40's Stetson.

 

[MD11]

You can search with google also.

A good thread to start.


Look around, get a feel for the place. We encourage searching and reviving old threads.

No offense meant, but you've asked a question that is best answered by plundering the considerable information to be found here. Welcome to The Fedora Lounge.

thanks, will do that.. my comment wasn't aimed at you.

thanks again

 

[Art Fawcett]

Welcome to the Lounge MD11

I read somewhere that lite soft felts came about as economical result of the Great Depression

.

This may be one of the quotes that feltfan is reacting to as it most likely comes from someone not only banned from the Lounge, but knows little about the history of hats. It's in print because at the time of it's writing, the hatter couldn't get lightweight felts and needed to discourage the discussions of them to further his own ambitions.

 

[MD11]

Welcome to the Lounge MD11

.

This may be one of the quotes that feltfan is reacting to as it most likely comes from someone not only banned from the Lounge, but knows little about the history of hats. It's in print because at the time of it's writing, the hatter couldn't get lightweight felts and needed to discourage the discussions of them to further his own ambitions.

Art, thanks for your insight, but I have to admit I'm totally lost.. The quote you mention above isn't from my thread, nor me, so I'm a bit confused? Is feltfan accusing me of being this hatter? I'm far from a hatter, trust me. I guess there is some history here that I'm not aware of.. but I'm very interested in it if you wish to add more.

 

[MD11]

You can search with
A good thread to start.

.

I got this below in bold from the above link.. and it makes my question even more valid.. he states the quality is better, but doesn't tell us why? Is it the Mercury process only that is the cause as others here mentioned?


FOR HAT QUALITY

Most vintage dress hats are far better in quality than those you can have made by the the best hatters on the modern market.

 

[Art Fawcett]

First MD11, by orders of the management, I cannot publicly name the hatter but will be happy to talk to you privately to fill you in.

Most vintage dress hats are far better in quality than those you can have made by the the best hatters on the modern market.

OK, here we have opinion. It's an educated one, but still opinion. The reasons are vast for the quality differences but I don't fully agree with the basic premise of this statement. So, lets break it down just a bit to explain it.

First, yes, the carroting process was very helpful in making felt density higher in the past. However, today's felts are of very good quality at the higher levels using chemicals other than mercury for the carroting process.

Yesterday's hatters had almost unlimited resources to choose from as the industry was SO big in the Golden Era, but that doesn't mean that they were "better" ( subjective). I personally come from both camps ( vintage vs New) as that's how I learned to make hats. trust me, junk hats were made back then also, but they haven't survived ( thank goodness).

Third, hats have a "lifespan" in terms of the felting process, meaning it will continue to felt itself for many years. After a certain amount of time ( unknown to me) the felt stops the felting process and "dies". Hats made today are at the beginning of that process. Thus, some compare it "apples to oranges" and have a valid point.

I'm sure there are many many more answers to this basic question that I'm leaving out for the sake of time, but it's a never ending arguement here.

Since the post was edited I have no real idea what was said other than what was quoted by feltfan. Couldn't read the post.

 

[Art Fawcett]

The quote you mention above isn't from my thread, nor me, so I'm a bit confused?

My apologies MD11, you are absolutely right, I confused MAB1 with MD11. My comment should have been directed to MAB1.

 

[MD11]

Art, thanks.. all makes sense. I guess I was originally getting to the question. "money being no object" are hats today inferior? Which is to say, if I took the average quality Beaver hat of yesteryear and compared it to the best Stetson pure beaver, or even a 100X like mine, is the older hat a superior product - in terms of weather, long life, and luxury feel? I asked these questions because I have just spent a good bit on two 100x hats and would feel like I got a bad deal if I found out that I could have paid 1/10 the price for a better hat off (hope I can mention this place).. Ebay?

Anyway, I'm doing some more thread searches and finding some other discussions that frankly sound like a lot of opinion and not much in terms of fact..

As I said, there is no debate as to the facts on a 1944 Martin D45 vs a 2008 model... that is a matter of superior materials and a bit of "rarity" that lends to the $200,000 price tag vs $10,000 for a new one... On the vintage hat front, the price seems to be a lot lower, which begs the question, if they're better, why don't they cost more?

btw.. art, check your PM.. I'm interested in your hats.

 

[Tango Yankee]

On the vintage hat front, the price seems to be a lot lower, which begs the question, if they're better, why don't they cost more?

Supply and demand. In the past there wasn't a lot of demand for vintage hats. That has changed recently, in part due to the existence of this forum. In the year and a half since I became seriously interested in vintage hats I've seen the ending costs of them climb, especially for certain brands/models. Of course, you never can tell what'll happen on ebay--a hat that would be expected to go for several hundred might go for $55, or vice versa. But in general prices are climbing.

Answering the question of how can you tell vintage is better than new, well, you can't--at least not objectively. This is my non-expert opinion, you understand... and yes, there are lots of opinions to be found by searching this subject. There are a lot of problems with coming up with an objective, scientific means of testing and comparing the two, not the least of which is that it would probable tend to be distructive--and who wants to see a vintage Stetson 100 damaged?

Now, the opinions that you may find will range from educated (those with lots of experience handling and examining both vintage and modern felt hats) and the not so experienced. For some the experience and opinion may be based on a limited experience, such as comparing a vintage Open Road with a more recent one. As there is no scientific testing that can be done one's own senses are the only real means to form an opinion.

Reading labels doesn't help. As I'm sure you've found, the "X" system is almost useless to determine quality, expecially in more recent hats. A vintage 3X Stetson is greatly prized; a modern 1000X hat isn't. Why? Because of the feel and other subjective qualities of the two.

Bottom line is that although the general consensus is that vintage felt tends to be better than modern, and there are theories as to why this may be (chemicals used, the felting process continuing for years after the hat is made and sold, that sort of thing) we're not likely to ever see a means of proving it.

As for the hats you purchased--yes, you might have been able to get better hats cheaper on ebay. Or not. You never can tell with ebay. You can drive yourself nuts worrying about whether or not you got a good deal or whether you could have gotten a better one. It's like when I was stationed in Korea--no matter how good a deal you think you got on a custom made jacket, someone else got a better one. What really counts is whether or not you like the hats you bought--do they look good on you, do they fit well, do you like how they feel, and do they hold up to being used. You're the only one who'll be able to decide if they were worth it.

Wear 'em, enjoy 'em, don't fret about 'em.

I'm tired, I'm rambling, typing too much. But I hope it helped some how.

Regards,
Tom

 

[MD11]

Wow Tom, lots of wisdom in your post. I appreciate your taking the time to educate me.