What is the optimum weave count for a Panama?

[Fedoraphile]

This past week I was in Ecuador, and had the chance to take a look as quite a few Panama hats. One of the things I noticed was that the higher weave count panamas were quite floppy, which is to be expected. I've seen some excellent panama hats on this forum that were blocked and look simply fantastic. However, if the weave count is extremely fine, I just wonder how long those hats are going to retain that spectacular shape, or have they simply been starched and stiffened to be able to hold the shape?

When I was there, I bought three panamas, and they were quite inexpensive. I went to the Amazonas street in Quito where everybody was hawking their wares. I bought one panama for $15 at the airport and it looks great. All it needs is a little bit of steaming to bring the approximately 3 inch brim down in the front, and it's ready to go. Another one I bought for $10, and it's definitely coarser but holds it's shape very well. It's straw colored, has a nice high crown. Love it. Then the third one is a white Cuenca that is great too; I paid $18 for it.

Two of the hats were rolled up by the vendor and put into one of those rectangular boxes, and looked awful when I took them out, so I soaked them in cool water and then stretched them over an old wool fedora that I no longer wear and shaped them to my liking and ironed them afterwards and they look awesome, at least to me.

My question is: What is the optimal weave count for a Panama to hold it's shape reasonably well without starching?

Thanks!

Fedoraphile

 

[Neil]

Weave count

Sounds like you got good deals.
At those prices, in the US, I don't think there's much weave counting going on.

 

[Fedoraphile]

How deep are my pockets? Deep enough to buy any of the hats that I've seen advertised on the various websites. My question is not about money or how much a hat goes for. When I was in Quito, one of the stores had an extremely fine weave count Panama they asked $800 for, which they insisted I try on, which I did, and promptly put back on the shelf.

My issue is with a hat losing it's shape and then needing not just a bit of steaming but reblocking. What is the best weave count for a Panama to hold its shape with minimal fuss?

I bought a Panama last year from Panama Bob and was and still am delighted with it. It holds it's shape well and with a bit of steaming always looks great. It is one of his Diamante hats, not expensive at all.

All of the finer hats I saw in Ecuador were too floppy for me; I like a slightly stiffer hat.

So, I'll reformulate my original question: What is the optimal weave count for a Panama that will hold it's shape with minimal fuss and without resorting to starching to add stiffness?

Thanks,

Fedoraphile

Edit: I just noticed that a previous posters question about how deep my pockets are has been deleted... hmmm....

 

[Fedoraphile]

Sounds like you got good deals.
At those prices, in the US, I don't think there's much weave counting going on.

I just did a quick weave count on the three hats.

The straw colored one I got for $10 is pretty coarse, and comes in about 100; nice hat for mowing the lawn and so on, looks plenty good in any case.

The other two come in around 130 to 150... Not bad at all for about $15.

BTW, I didn't count those weaves until a few minutes ago; I bought the hats because I liked the way they looked.

Fedoraphile

 

[Neil]

Weave count

PB assures me that even the finest weave will hold its shape if properly blocked and stiffened. I have had the same conversation with Graham at Optimo, who sells all the way up to super-super-super fine (and unbelievably expensive), and he says more or less the same thing. Both are experts, and seem to regard a certain amount of stiffener as uncontroversial.
All that said, the question of how fine a hat one should buy is extremely subjective, and there seems to be no clear answer.
My take is this: There is a point of diminishing returns. In other words, at a certain point, you're throwing away your money. Where that point is, I guess, depends on how much you can afford to throw away.
Brent Black spends hundreds of words on his website exploring the issue. I think his assessment is pretty sensible.

 

[irb]

An excellent question; I'm comfortable with between 800 and 1000 WPSI, but I'm no expert. However, if everyone were to send me their panamas, I'd be happy to wear them about and test. I should be done in, oh, say 50 or 60 years.... *grin*

 

[Fedoraphile]

PB assures me that even the finest weave will hold its shape if properly blocked and stiffened. I have had the same conversation with Graham at Optimo, who sells all the way up to super-super-super fine (and unbelievably expensive), and he says more or less the same thing. Both are experts, and seem to regard a certain amount of stiffener as uncontroversial.
All that said, the question of how fine a hat one should buy is extremely subjective, and there seems to be no clear answer.
My take is this: There is a point of diminishing returns. In other words, at a certain point, you're throwing away your money. Where that point is, I guess, depends on how much you can afford to throw away.
Brent Black spends hundreds of words on his website exploring the issue. I think his assessment is pretty sensible.

Thank you for a very helpful post. I had suspected that some stiffener is probably used, and that's fine with me, as now I know it's totally normal.

As for the point of diminishing returns to which you refer, in your opinion, where does that lie? I went over Brent Black's website a bit but didn't really find anything that speaks specifically to that point. Have to say his website is very informative and has scads of beautiful hats. As far as throwing money away is concerned, I'm not exactly interested in doing that!!

Fedoraphile

 

[Dewhurst]

Edit: I just noticed that a previous posters question about how deep my pockets are has been deleted... hmmm....

Thank you for providing this EDIT bit here. I was COMPLETELY LOST for a moment when I read your reply to the first post above. Thought I was losing it for a second.

 

[Panamabob]

You can tell by the pricing that all three hats are not Montecristis. The floppiest hats need only a good hatter to take care of them. I always tell people to aim low, to see if they even like the hats anyway. Some people don't. Some do. [huh]

 

[Fedoraphile]

You can tell by the pricing that all three hats are not Montecristis. The floppiest hats need only a good hatter to take care of them. I always tell people to aim low, to see if they even like the hats anyway. Some people don't. Some do. [huh]

No, definitely not Montecristis. I do like them though.

Thanks for your assistance.

Fedoraphile

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