CC41 and Double Eleven Utility Labels

[Hat'sThat!]

Hi everyone!

I am a newbie to this forum and would like to introduce myself. I am in my twenties and live near Oxford in the UK and have been collecting WW2 military uniforms for a few years now but I have recently began a collection of vintage womenswear.

I have a question and wondered if anyone out there can help. I am particularly interested in Utility clothing and the associated labels. I also have a few items with the CC41 label in. However, recently I was at a vintage fair and spied a lovely mint green evening dress, which was not something I was in the market for that day, but it was beautiful; absolutely classic 1940s; almost mint condition apart from some fading and I did also see that it had a large 'Double Eleven' or 'Dinnerplate' logo on the label. I know the Double Eleven logo is a more unusual utility logo and have read from a few sources that this logo was post war and also for 'luxury' items. So, I bought the dress and took it home to see what I could find out about it. This is where I need some help! The label is printed and not embroidered as I would expect a wartime (or just post wartime) label to be. It features the Double Eleven logo and also states the dress is by 'PT Gowns'. The dress also has a label in a seam that IS embroidered in yellow and states 'Jays London 18'. I asked my partner what he thought as to its age and he reckoned late 40s as he has come across printed labels before.

I wondered if anyone out there had any idea as to this dresses age, who 'PT Gowns' were or who 'Jays of London' were?

Thanks very much!

 

[Two Types]

I would recommend that you post some photos of the labels. I'm sure someone will be able to help.

 

[herringbonekid]

from what i've seen the CC41 labels are nearly always printed and the double 11 are stitched.

there's some info about both labels in this thread, though nothing particularly conclusive about the double 11:

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?60566-CC41-decoding-the-codes

 

[Hat'sThat!]

Lol yeah I am new to this and couldn't work out how to post a pic but here they are now though! This is the one of the label in the neck:

And this is one of the label in the seam:

Thanks herringbonekid for the link!

 

[herringbonekid]

i don't have the book here, but there's some info on the double 11 in Jonathan Walford's book 'Forties Fashion, from siren suits to the new look'.

 

[Hat'sThat!]

Cool I will have to have a look. Thanks

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Siren suits … says it was for higher end items, "but exact conditions for its use are currently unknown".

The Baroness has a Frank Usher suit with the label. He apparently tended to do knockoffs of latest Paris fashions of the time.

As for dating. I have heard of jay's of London, but that's it. Is there a zipper in the dress? I should be able to give more info with a good picture of the puller and top teeth on the tape.

 

[Hat'sThat!]

Hi,

That would be great! Here is a pic taken on an ipad. If it's not good enough quality let me know and I will get one off a camera. I couldn't capture the writing on the puller. It's engraved with the word 'Lightning.'

Thanks

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I think that's the same puller. There was once a FLounge member who was the zip buyer at Belstaff for years, and was very knowledgable on zippers. Apparently this model of puller was introduced by Lightning in the late 1940s.

at the very top of the zip tape, are the end teeth U/D-shaped or solid?

 

[Hat'sThat!]

It's two separate u shapes

 

[Baron Kurtz]

That dates the zip, at least to late 40s-50s. For women's gear you can use style, I guess for a ore accurate dating. Men's stuff, not so much.

 

[Hat'sThat!]

Thanks Baron Kurtz, I am really pleased with that! I am almost 100% sure it was late 40s through the style and where the lady I bought it off got it from herself but had no idea you could date using zips.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Yes, indeed. Using zips is a little minefield-y as you can only date the zip. The zip might have been made in the 40s, but put into a garment yesterday. So, the zip is part of the evidence that amasses for a date, but by no means unequivocal. It's a good mean's of giving an earliest date though. So, with that model zip puller (and no evidence that it, or the tracks/end teeth, had been replaced) no-one could argue the garment was from the 1930s.

In this case, with the zip puller and stop teeth, the IIOII label and the reported style of the garment (especially as it's women's), the evidence gets quite compelling for a late 1940s-middle 1950s date.