Fallschirmjager Regiment 6 - Pacific Northwest

[dr greg]

vicarious experience

I do remember reading a while back, and the story may well have been apocryphal, that there was an island off Norway somewhere that had a replica concentration camp on it staffed with people in SS uniforms etc, but here's the thing, it was supposedly set up by rich Jews as a sort of teen boot camp for the drugged-up or wayward kids of their community as a lesson in what they'd been through as a way to straighten the delinquents out.
Anybody else know of this?...if it did happen, it's reenacting taken to an interesting level.

 

[Guttersnipe]

I'm no sure if this was dirrected at my previous post...

Another point: you can play act all you want, and think you're partaking of the "real" experience, but there is no way to replicate the emotional state of perpetual terror involved in a real war. There's no way the "reenact" the horror of real carnage. No way the "simulate" the agony of death. This is what war is really all about.
I'm a real history buff, and I've delved into WW I and WW II pretty well. As much as I can understand the interest people have in doing this, I think the overall effect is to sanitize and prettify the experience of war.
I don't feel quite so negative about pre 20th century reenactments. Those eras are a lot more remote to us, and maybe the reenacting can have more educational value. But WW II, as neat as so many aspects of it might be, I have a slight problem with the actual combat reennactment.
I have to admit, I've never been to a WW II reenactrment event, so that should be taken into account with my opinion.

...even if it's not, I feel a little need to stick up for reeactors in general.

To be perfectly frank, I completely understand your reservations about possible "sanitizing" of war through play acting. Also, as I stated before, WW2 reenacting is not something I'm interested in doing for a number of reasons - if you would like to hear those reasons from a reenacting insider, PM me. The issue of our cultures desensitization to violence runs much deeper then reenacting and it probably not a matter fit for discussion on the FL.

That said, there is s STRONG public service component to historical reenacting. Organizations I have belonged to work closely with the United States Park Service putting on "living history" displays at historical sites for school children and the general public. A lot of fund raising is done through the reenactor community to help fund preservation of endangered historical land marks.

Hopefully everyone can all bare in mind these positives before completely rejecting the idea of historical reenacting.

 

[StraightEight]

Count me as one who is believes that there are more ways to touch the past than through the grainy portals of old black and white photos. A book is history filtered, interpreted, and edited by somebody else. The chaotic past doesn't get a fair representation in the static, carefully orchestrated displays of a museum. All feature films trade at least some historical accuracy for dramatic effect.

Nobody questions a biologist going into the field to conduct research. Why can't historians do the same? These guys believe that an important element of the study of history is getting out there, in the field. I commend them for it.

 

[WH1]

Another point: you can play act all you want, and think you're partaking of the "real" experience, but there is no way to replicate the emotional state of perpetual terror involved in a real war. There's no way the "reenact" the horror of real carnage. No way the "simulate" the agony of death. This is what war is really all about.
I'm a real history buff, and I've delved into WW I and WW II pretty well. As much as I can understand the interest people have in doing this, I think the overall effect is to sanitize and prettify the experience of war.
I don't feel quite so negative about pre 20th century reenactments. Those eras are a lot more remote to us, and maybe the reenacting can have more educational value. But WW II, as neat as so many aspects of it might be, I have a slight problem with the actual combat reennactment.
I have to admit, I've never been to a WW II reenactrment event, so that should be taken into account with my opinion.

Well said. I have a degree in history and have been to Civil War reenactments many times which are interesting and I understand the need to educate but I have to agree with Herman I find the trend towards WW2 and Vietnam simulated combat bizarre and a bit disturbing. Having spent over 20 years in uniform, served in multiple conflicts I would recommend if you are 18-35 and want to understand the realities of combat go enlist and come join the rest of us getting a firsthand taste.
Recently I was told by a buddy that there are now Desert Storm reenactors. Strange, I guess you know you are getting old when they start reenacting a war you served in.:eusa_doh:

 

[Spitfire]

Well said. I have a degree in history and have been to Civil War reenactments many times which are interesting and I understand the need to educate but I have to agree with Herman I find the trend towards WW2 and Vietnam simulated combat bizarre and a bit disturbing. Having spent over 20 years in uniform, served in multiple conflicts I would recommend if you are 18-35 and want to understand the realities of combat go enlist and come join the rest of us getting a firsthand taste.
Recently I was told by a buddy that there are now Desert Storm reenactors. Strange, I guess you know you are getting old when they start reenacting a war you served in.:eusa_doh:

Well said.

There are even days when I try to reenact what I did the day before...:eusa_doh:

 

[Dudleydoright]

Reality

I think most of these reenactors - if they have enough interest to buy all the kit and renact - are VERY well read when it comes to second hand experiences of war. I also think that anyone who has read a book like Anthony Beevor's 'Stalingrad' or Guy Sajers 'Forgotten Soldier' can think anything but that was is horrible. However, it is part of the human psyche and the fact that a lot of our grandparents lived through it and still managed to have good, productive lives means it can be survived - albeit with scars. To know combat is to understand what helped to forge our greatest generation and why the world is the way it is. Renactors do 'Living History'. That doesn't mean that they have to rip limbs off or kill. It allows them insights into small parts of the WW2 experience.
I do have a problem with the SS stuff and don't see why that can't be left to pass into the history books but Fallschirmjager ? Why not. These people also supply a ready made bunch of accurately kitted out extras for the war movies we love so much !

Dave

 

[DutchIndo]

America is a Gun Culture face it whether you agree or not it always has been. Movies have a BIG influence look at America in the 40s and 50s. Back then it was 6 shooters and Lever actions. It was in that period Colt started re-manufacturing it's Long Colt. Boys have always played War since the beginning of time. How many books have we read where some boy/man wanted to "See The Elephant" ? I often thought how WWII would have turned out if they had the Media we have now. Back then there was only News Reels (censored) the radio and Movies. They did not show Blood and Gore we now see on TV. Death was abstract in the 30s and 40s not like now.
It was this ignorance that had boys signing up en masse Dec 8th. It was only after seeing War as it really is that they realized the Horror. They grew up with Cowboys with "Flesh Wounds" or neat little bullet holes. These were the Kids that went to Tarawa, Omaha, Dieppe and Anzio. I know I strayed off the subject, Sorry but I was trying to point out mentality differences. Most Re-enactors never experienced War a small minority actually serve. As an old Re-enactor though I can identify with them.

 

[Davep]

If you want an opinion regarding WWII reenactors, How about two impressions from two veterans?

Pfc Edward Pepping - E Company 101st Airborne - 506th - Medic
His feeling about WWII Reenactors
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5497236240044570997

Sgt Robert Noody - F Company 101st Airborne - 506th
Who expresses his feeling to a large group of reenactors at a combat battle reenactment.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5744828311568600706

This is just a sampling I have more.

 

[MPicciotto]

The greatest part of reenacting for me is when a veteran walks into our encampment and shares his story. Not just with us, but with his family. We've had family members walk back into the tent afterwards and tells us that their father or grandfather has NEVER shared those stories or has NEVER talked about the war until that day. Last July we were at the Geneseo Air Show portraying an AAF unit out of India when an elderly gentleman walked into my tent (a GP-Small or Squad type tent) and his first words were:

"These tents were pieces of shit! We called them sweat hogs. Now the Limey's, they had good tents"

We talk and I learn that he was in the AAF stationed in India. We talked for an hour or two, then he talked to others in my unit for a while longer. He spent nearly the entire day of the air show in our camp.

Another veteran at a show I wasn't at reported walked into the tent,sniffed around said"

"That ******** smell"

and walked out smiling.

It's very awkward when veterans are thanking YOU. I want to thank THEM! All I'm doing is playing dress-up for the weekend and trying to show younger generations just a bit of how those who were there lived. We do it to honor the veterans who served. It always amazes me how I can talk to a man who flew in B-29's over Japan or piloted a landing craft on D-day who has survived in this world to today and stop them speechless just by thanking them for what they did. So many vets I talk to have a pragmatic, it had to be done attitude. AND a "you wouldn't be interested in that" attitude when I ask about their experiences.

So many kids and even adults today are amazed when we tell them that yes we do live in these tents, sleep in these sleeping bags and eat out of these mess trays for the weekend of the show.

My impressions are shaped more by what is often called "living history" versus reenacting. As I do not participate in any battle reenactments, but set up an AAF encampent and participate in reenacted mission briefings etc.

I hope this sheds a little light on the "other side" of reenacting.

Matt

 

[Tophat Dan]

No harm...

From my point of view reenacting does no harm, and even manages to educate the odd member of the public.
The fact that we, as human beings, can go in a mere 20, 30, 50 or even 150 years from slaughtering and outright hatred of one another to actually turning the violence and anger into something that entertains and educates is absolutely amazing. It is also necessary. You know your society has truly coped well with an event when you can dress up like johnny reb, I can dress up like billy yank, we can pretend to do what our great, great ancestors were trying to do in deadly earnest and then we can have a beer together and LAUGH about it. War gets turned into friendship. Nothing gets better than that.

However, there are the questions of taste and living memory. Re-enactment acceptability is relative to the place you are doing your impression and how close the event is to living memory. In Germany for example, I can understand why re-enactment of the WW2 period would be frowned upon. There are still people alive who were victims. Weapons caches (though fewer and farther between) are still coming to light and finding unexploded ordinance is a matter of course when building or excavating takes place.
In America, it's a different story. The war is perceived differently here because the country hasn't been fought over for 200 years. As far as I can tell from most crowds, re-enactment is looked upon more favorably.

A re-enactment I attended even managed to make a recent movie better for me. Back in 2008, the Yankee Air Museum put on their regular airshow and added a HUGE amount of re-enactors to go along with it. At the end of the scripted battle all of the jeeps, 2-and-a-half ton trucks, scout cars, kubels, and halftracks rolled by followed by the eight or ten tanks of American, British and German manufacture. It was the armor that got me. I had seen tanks before in museums, in static displays, in pictures. I had even touched a Sherman and talked to the re-enactors who kept it running prior to the battle when it was parked for display. Nothing prepared me for how much the ground shook when those ten vehicles rolled by though, or the noise their treads made on pavement. The amount of dust they threw up into the air also surprised me. In theory I had known tanks were big, heavy nasty machines, but seeing them in action really brought that home.

Fast forward to a couple weeks ago. I took my wife to go see "Defiance". The film is about a group of jewish partisans in Russia who hid from and fought the Germans during the war. In one scene, a German tank shows up when the partisans are caught in the open with women and children. I instinctively hunched up and clutched at the armrests while my stomach went into sudden knots. I knew at that moment some of what those people experienced. How utterly terrifying it must have been to hear the clank and thunder of armor, to feel the ground heave when you have nothing but a suitcase in one hand and a child in the other. I never wish to have a similar feeling again. That being said I am glad I had it. It taught me why we have to remember. It enabled me to connect in a small way with people who are long dead, and it helped me understand the story they can no longer tell themselves.

Dan Peterson

 

[Davep]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOJolXzrU_g

Here is another video, It's from the Akron Colorado Air Show called the National Radial Engine Exhibition. This video covers the whole show, but if you wait for the 1:40 minute mark, the reenactor part starts. Great commentary amd protechinics, one of a guy fire a bazooka

I love this line

"One teacher told us, that she had two days scheduled for studying World War II, she said thanks to us we're on our second week because of the questions generated in their visit"

Here is yet another one, mid video is another veteran's comment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJfVUPJGX6c


---

 

[bigshoe]

For those who think re-enactors need to serve to understand war I think you would be suprised at my mailing list. I have sent hundreds of boots and shoes to APO addresses. After 9-11 significant numbers of my client base enlisted I have received quite a few orders fron guys about to terminate who want a new pair of boots waiting for them when the get home.
In my old reenacting group in N.M. about 50 % of us were veterans including a ret USAF Brig Gen., A MGS U.S.M.C. ret. Two Army Maj. One of whom graduated from Horeshoeing school on Dec 5 1941 as an e-4 and retired as a Maj. after serving in three wars, along with a couple of active serice men.
Tom

 

[_RAGNAR_]

In Germany, they will arrest you.
I do not have any problem with our history, but this was not a good periode for Germany and from my opinion, there is no need to play war.
A lot of people will not understand it and normaly you have to explain this time
and the political situation,not only playing a game.
Uniforms and historical weapons should be in museums.

Actually the organization in Germany we are associated with is officially recognized by the German government as a veterans association and does living history there along with veterans funeral and reunions. The Fallschirmjager reunion I attended had official military representatives from over half dozen western European countries.


Maybe in Germany weapons belong in museums, in America they belong on the range being shot.

 

[_RAGNAR_]

Why?
I appreciate the historical accuracy etc, that's amazing, but why a Wehrmacht unit?
They were "the enemy" after all, I don't know of any Australians putting together a Japanese outfit, and I can imagine the outcry if someone did, it's all very well moving on from the past, but I can't see it happening in our country even in this day and age.
Who or what prompted the formation of it? People of german descent ?
I stress again, I don't disapprove, I'm just puzzled as to how it all came about.

Couple simple answers, you cannot understand yourself without understanding your enemy. In many ways your enemy defines you. Sun Tzu had some things to say about that.

On top of that U.S. modern military tactics were very much derived from WWII German tactics (see above) to truly understand modern tactics you need to look at where they came from and why.

Then you cannot properly honor Allied veterans without an accurate depiction of their enemy. If their enemy was Hogan’s Heroes, what did they sacrifice or accomplish? I’d say the people who like us best are US WWII veterans, specifically ones that fought Fallschirmjagers. I have had many a veteran who was invited by an allied unit spend all day and night with our unit talking about the “enemy.” The veterans who fought these guys want them depicted accurately, as the professionals they were. The first “German” unit in America was formed by a guy whose U.S. WWII veteran father was very upset by the depiction of the Germans at an historical display and thought they belittled Americas sacrifice.

As for us being of German descent, some of our guys have pretty German names, but I don’t know if that is what led them to pick this unit. Our two Jewish guys surely didn’t pick it for that reason. (an very interesting hidden part of history include Jew in Germany and the Luftwaffe) Of the two black guys who have expressed interest in joining only one would be joining because he is German!

 

[_RAGNAR_]

I know there are plenty of WW2 reenactors in this country, and someone no doubt has to dress up as the 'bad guys', as do film extras, so I am not suggesting that mediaeval jousting weekends are insulting Crusaders, but to have a specific unit modelled on very rigid parameters seems to me to go beyond what I would assume to be normal reenacting, and I just wonder how it came about, what is the motivation so to speak.

“Normal” reenacting, if there is such a thing, is VERY much about specific units and organizations. Down to names, paybooks, letters from home, the whole deal. That is the part that makes it living history.

The motivation is to create a suspension of belief that allows a person to time travel as much as possible.

 

[Harp]

schon fraulein, mein herr fallschirmjager.

 

[_RAGNAR_]

To me it's a mixture between a fascination of times past - and a fascination of heroisme, power, war and ...dare I say it?...guns.

I could post in any thread on this board with “a fascination of times past - and a fascination of heroisme, power, war and ...dare I say it?...hats”

Guns are fun, more fun than hats IMO.

 

[MPicciotto]

Guns are fun, more fun than hats IMO.

Careful there Ragnar, This was a nice pleasant discussion. And although I agree with you I'm afraid that now it's gonna turn ugly and get this thread shut down

Matt

 

[Norumbega]

At the beginning, I think the thrust of the author's thread was an introduction, and little more. I've read some of the subsequent responses, and have skimmed others, and the thread itself seems to have shifted, and questions have arisen regarding everything from motive to sanity it would seem.

I am not sure I can add more to the cauldron other than to say that I fully believe that living historians (and reenactors) are the guardians, perhaps a latent Pretorian Guard, to our historical past. I would also opine that some living historians get lost in the etheral veil, and find re-entry between the past and the present a pull, as if a tide.

Living History serves a definite purpose, and is truly the double blade which instructs and interprets a period of history, not only for the mass, but for the participant. Were you to essentially "double time" the march (in wool & leather) of the 3rd or 6th Corps in to Gettysburg in July, you would experience a bit of an epiphany as to how those old boys felt before being thrown into the maelstrom. Through experiencing the act, it allows the participant a greater understanding.
No rational living historian thinks for a moment that they can understand or duplicate a historical moment in time under fire.....there are too many variables. Yet, any serious living historian undertakes the challenge, hoping for that vapor of wisdom and understanding....a small sense of nirvana if you will which, in the end is little more than a momentary smidgen of time travel. It is all that the dedicated living historian can hope for.

The pay off? From what I observe, a dedication to preservation and knowledge sharing with the world, which more often than not, robes itself in the mantle of chief stick-in-the-eye to an apathetic society, bent more on pleasure seeking and the returns on it's collective 401K plan.

So yes, in defense of them....I feel they are torchbearers to our historical record. And isn't that, in a looser sense what encapsulates many of the seperate passions of this website? From Fedoras, to vintage toasters, curlers to lapels.....the people on this very website embroil themselves in the care and feeding of a bygone era, seeking their own understanding and sense of time travel. It really is an illusion and the chance for many to leap through that etheral veil.

 

[Spitfire]

Guns or hats? To each his own.

All I say is that guys strutting around in a german uniform, brings back a lot of bad memories to many europeans.
Just the fact that your group posed in a French city like this:

Gives memories of this:

Right or wrong, fair or not fair has got nothing to do with it.
All the explanation of the SS/gestapo did this and the wehrmacht was just the wehrmacht, The luftwaffe was just the luftwaffe. Forget it!
It simply happened to theese unfortunate girls - the Feldmadrassen - because they hang out with the germans soldiers - The enemy, The nazis. The Oppressors - who tortured and killed restistancemembers, jews and whiped out villages.

In the words of my father - who fought the Germans in the Danish resistance:
"I did not - and could not - hate the ordinary, single german soldier. But I hatede everything the uniform stood for.
Every one of them had sworn loyality to Hitler. Every one of them had a swastica on their uniform."

Just think about it, before your group comes over here again.