Geatest designs of WWII

[Alan Eardley]

Not just Major Dixon...

If we are talking simple but effective fixes, what about 'Miss Shilling's Orifice'?

Alan

 

[ethanedwards]

Brilliant Tim, thanks. I wonder what £30 G is in today's money?
(PO Prune seemed appropriate somehow!)
Alan, you have begged the question, so please tell me/us what Miss Shilling's
Orifice is!?! Although I'm not sure I really want to know......

 

[Smithy]

Ethan, Miss Shilling's Orifice was a simple device fitted to the Merlin to stop the carburettor starving under negative G manoeuvres. Something which occurred when early Spits and Hurris attempted to follow the fuel injected German fighters in such manoeuvres.

 

[Smithy]

Although the late war stuff is not my main interest, I think you might be right about the Uhu becoming operational before the P-61. Just had a look in a couple of books and that appears to be the case.

 

[ethanedwards]

Thanks again Tim - I read about this in "Fly for Your Life" - although I have never heard it called this before. If I recall, Stanford-Tuck learned to flip on his back before taking his pursuing dive and avoided power-loss that way. Must have been frustrating to say the least............

 

[Smithy]

Thanks again Tim - I read about this in "Fly for Your Life" - although I have never heard it called this before. If I recall, Stanford-Tuck learned to flip on his back before taking his pursuing dive and avoided power-loss that way. Must have been frustrating to say the least............

Actually before Miss Shilling's Orifice was adopted the way to counter this found by RAF fighter pilots was to half roll the aircraft before attempting to dive, thereby throwing fuel from the carburettor into the engine instead of vice versa and out of it. Obviously though this wasted precious time in a dogfight.

 

[Twitch]

The 1st few production He 219s got 1st kills in June 1943 and the P-61 deliveries beagn in March 1944.

As for additional innovative designs I'll nominate the Horten Ho 229

 

[ethanedwards]

The 1st few production He 219s got 1st kills in June 1943 and the P-61 deliveries beagn in March 1944.

As for additional innovative designs I'll nominate the Horten Ho 229

Crikey Twitch, those Ho 229's look like something out of 'Independence day' - how did development go with them? Was there a projected roll-out date?
Great, sinister photo/comp.

 

[Twitch]

Here's some more info on it. It was accepted for prodution before the end and probably would have beenin service as fast as they came off the line, probably 3 more months.


HO 229
With the 1942 requirement in mind for a jet bomber, the Horten brothers took three full years to put together their Ho 9A prototype that ultimately became the Ho 229 V2. A V3 was assembled as a test bed for production techniques and the V4 was the first 2-seat production aircraft. The V1 was a non-powered glider. We know that the Gotha engineers noted a concern for a lack of lateral stability. Without a vertical fin of some sort the Ho 9 flying wing shape would make slight yaw undulations as an alligator swims, they believed. Walter conceded that a vertical fin would assist the design and make it a better fighter gun platform. This would have been the Ho 9B with a single Jumo 004 turbojet.

If we fast forward a bit we note that Jack Northrop’s separate development of the all-wing craft culminated with the NM-1 in 1940 but it had twin booms with control surfaces attached. The B-35 was all-wing with four 2,000 HP P & W piston pushers. Those engine nacelles may have added some lateral stability in place of a fin. The YB-49 was pure jet with eight Allisons good enough to push the 172-foot span to 500 MPH but it had four small vertical fins at the end of upper surface wing strakes.

So perhaps the Ho 229 probably would have been retrofitted with a fin or two once more flight-testing was done. During the limited flying of the V2 in December 1944 pilot Lt. Ziller achieved 500 MPH at 70% throttle. It climbed faster and at a steeper angle of attack than the Me 262 as Hermann G??ring observed. The V2 ultimately crashed after an engine failure. Most importantly, there was no sign of yawing alligator crawl!
When we state estimated performance for many of the “blueprint” airplanes we must understand that aeronautical engineers used slide rules to calculate it given weight, power and aerodynamics. Today they use computers but the math is the same. And the Ho 229 was the real deal.

The wing on the 9A spanned 54.1 feet and lengthwise it was 24.6 feet. All up weight was 18,739 lbs. from a 10,140 lb. empty weight. The pilot was nestled between the two Junker Jumo 004Bs with 1,984 lbs. thrust, which made for a cruise of 429 MPH at 32,810 feet with 60% throttle. Normally a 3-hour mission would cover 1,180 miles but external fuel could extend that to 1,970 miles. Two 2,205 lb. bombs were to be carried and its four 30 mm Mk 108 cannon were to have had about 200 RPG.

Performance was excellent. While 500 MPH had already been achieved a 590 MPH velocity at sea level was projected along with 607 MPH at 39,372 feet. Climb was 4,331 FPM and the ceiling was a whopping 52, 496 feet. Jumo 004C engines with 2,200 lbs. thrust were projected for later production run giving about 640 MPH maximum with a 559 MPH cruise. We can only guess at what a pair of 2,866 lb. thrust HeS 11s would have done!

The footnote to the Ho 229 V3 is the fact that it was brought to the U.S. for evaluation. Since it was meant as construction assembly model the Air Force abandoned the idea though it would have been airworthy since it was not simply a “cobbled” mock up. In the 1970s the Air and Space Museum was collecting worthy aircraft from a Chicago scrap facility when asked if they wanted “that old German flying wing.” History was saved and someday the Ho 229 will be restored.

No trail of history follows the V4, the first production aircraft. When the Army over ran the Gotha facilities the V4 was, by all accounts nearly complete and had been made into a 2-seat night fighter. Guns, armor and all- there it was. It is rumored that this plane was taken to the U.S. for flight-testing. Could copies have been produced by someone for say, the USAF? It is strange that the 1947 “sighting” by Kenneth Arnold describes crescent-shaped craft. He never said they were saucer-shaped, only that they skimmed through the air like a saucer skipped across water. His drawings show what resembles the Ho 229. Hmm?

The V-5 and V-6 night fighters were found partially finished while the V7 and V8 were a pile of parts.

This superior aircraft was already in its testing phase for a planned production. Nothing fantasy here. This baby would have to have had to have been reckoned with if it was produced in any numbers in a prolonged war not ending in May 1945.

Gotha was set up to manufacture the ships which would have been designated Go 229s.

 

[Martinis at 8]

Yeah, yeah...but Induction Logging, which came out of mine detection technology is what brings you oil and gas today.

 

[ethanedwards]

Ho 229

Fascinating, thank you Twitch. Would have been great to see one of those fly -
but obviously not from your Frazer-Nash, somewhere over Stuttgart....

 

[Pip]

For me, it would have to be the...Northrop P61, and the Hawker Tempest.

And on smaller terms, the AN-S31/AN6550 flying suit - just looks superb in green gabardine.


Phil.

 

[ethanedwards]

Hi Pip, Pierre Closterman writes about flying the Tempest in his fantastic book, 'the Big Show'. You really start to get a sense of the size and power of this beast from his account, it's a great memoir.

 

[Smithy]

Hi Pip, Pierre Closterman writes about flying the Tempest in his fantastic book, 'the Big Show'. You really start to get a sense of the size and power of this beast from his account, it's a great memoir.

If you're a big Tempest fan Ethan, get hold of a copy of "The Wild Winds" by Paul Sortehaug. It's the history of 486(NZ) Sqn which mainly flew Typhoons and Tempests during the war. Pricey but wonderful book chock full of photos and a good squadron history.

Lord Tedder, the Marshall of the RAF, stated that he considered 486 to be the hardest worked squadron in the RAF during WWII, and when you read the book you can see why.

 

[RIOT]

Panzerfaust

Tiger I, PzKpfw VI (88 mm)

 

[Pip]

Hi Pip, Pierre Closterman writes about flying the Tempest in his fantastic book, 'the Big Show'. You really start to get a sense of the size and power of this beast from his account, it's a great memoir.

Ooh yes, absolutely fantastic book, always on my bedside table. - must've read it 3 times over.

Free French members of the RAF, and FAFL are my main interests lol


Smithy - thanks for that one, wasn't aware of the book, will have to get a copy. Cheers!

Phil

 

[Smithy]

Smithy - thanks for that one, wasn't aware of the book, will have to get a copy. Cheers!

Phil

Hello Phil, pleased to hear you might get a copy, being a Tempest fan I guarantee that you will enjoy it. Also of interest at the end of the book it contains a very amusing "line shoot" section with the most amusing line shoots of the pilots.

You'd also enjoy "Tempest Pilot" by Jim Sheddan. He was in 486 and wrote a memoir which is very readable and paints an interesting picture of being a Tempest pilot. It also contains some hilarious recollections of the high jinx that 486 got up to and were infamous for.

 

[dhermann1]

This is a fascinating thread. But I must say, it's been a little one sided. The great German designs have been mentioned, but I believe only one Russioan design, the Sturmovic. How about the T33, the greatest tank ever bult? And the Japanese had a few goodies as well, such as the legendary Zero and the infamous Long Lance Torpedo.
Any experts out there on other excellent Russian, Japanese, Italian, French, Polish, Czech, etc., etc. designs?

 

[Diamondback]

Dan, think you mean the T-34 family. /76 or /85? Can't forget the KV-1 and the Stalin tanks...

 

[Story]

Any experts out there on other excellent Russian, Japanese, Italian, French, Polish, Czech, etc., etc. designs?

The Italian MAB 38 9mm submachinegun and it's descendents.
http://www.comandosupremo.com/1938a.html