Putting My Black Tie Outfit Together

[cufflinkmaniac]

Okay,I now know what all I'm buying to go with my tuxedo.

The tuxedo itself:

http:///www.tuxedosonline.com/detail.asp?product_id=M1BP

Not perect,but for a teenagers budget,good enough.

The shirt and collar:

Shirt-Marcella Collarless Evening Shirt

Collar-2 1/4" High Wing

Bow tie:

Custom (sized+pointed ends) from Kottydesigns.

Waistcoat:

http://uniformalwearhouse.com/apages/tuxedo_vests_pique.html


It's the 100% cotton one on the bottom.A bit more expensive,but I'd rather have 100% cotton than a blend.

Shoes:

http://www.giorgiobrutini.com/catalog/product.cfm?CFID=316398&CFTOKEN=34791431&categoryid=Dress%20Shoes&style=7827&waid=_b&color=1&o_line=0 (this is assuming I don't find them for less elswhere).


Socks:

http://www.josbank.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=1&Section_Id=&pcount=&Product_Id=85525



I'll be getting the collar studs from the Vintage Shirt Company as well.Naturally,I'll keep scouring eBay since I'm in no rush.

 

[DerMann]

Speaking from experience, you should ditch that waistcoat and get the marcella one off of vintage shirt co., you'll be much more satisfied with it.

At first, I bought one very similar to the one you're looking to get, and it just looked odd. The pockets do not work, the buttons are covered in marcella, are spaced quite far apart, and do not produce the correct gorge. Especially now that the USD has a bit more worth, it's not that bad. At £45 (I think) I paid a little over $90 for it, but it should be around $70 now.

I'm sure you already know that marcella waistcoats are usually worn with white tie dress, so as to contrast with the stark, white dicky on the boiled front shirts. Marcella waistcoats with dinner jackets did have a bit of popularity during the early 1930s, but it wasn't very common (I think it's in the Maltese Falcon, not sure). It is easier to get a correct marcella waistcoat than a black one in any fabric. The only route is to buy custom, really.

If you are dead set on getting a marcella waistcoat, it would be more correct to get the plain, stiff fronted shirt. It's a bit more expensive, but the contrast with the marcella is superb.

Personally, I wouldn't go with opera pumps, especially for black tie. Plain and cap toe patent leather oxfords look better in my opinion, and they stay on your feet better. You can also use them for more than dress parties.

One thing I didn't see was a pair of braces. If your trousers don't come with brace buttons, have a tailor put them on (exterior if possible), it'll be around $15-$20. Not only are braces more comfortable, they keep your trousers at the correct level all night. I would also suggest a pair of sock suspenders, as silk socks do have a tendency to slide down.

Good luck!

 

[cufflinkmaniac]

Speaking from experience, you should ditch that waistcoat and get the marcella one off of vintage shirt co., you'll be much more satisfied with it.

At first, I bought one very similar to the one you're looking to get, and it just looked odd. The pockets do not work, the buttons are covered in marcella, are spaced quite far apart, and do not produce the correct gorge. Especially now that the USD has a bit more worth, it's not that bad. At £45 (I think) I paid a little over $90 for it, but it should be around $70 now.

I'm sure you already know that marcella waistcoats are usually worn with white tie dress, so as to contrast with the stark, white dicky on the boiled front shirts. Marcella waistcoats with dinner jackets did have a bit of popularity during the early 1930s, but it wasn't very common (I think it's in the Maltese Falcon, not sure). It is easier to get a correct marcella waistcoat than a black one in any fabric. The only route is to buy custom, really.

If you are dead set on getting a marcella waistcoat, it would be more correct to get the plain, stiff fronted shirt. It's a bit more expensive, but the contrast with the marcella is superb.

Personally, I wouldn't go with opera pumps, especially for black tie. Plain and cap toe patent leather oxfords look better in my opinion, and they stay on your feet better. You can also use them for more than dress parties.

One thing I didn't see was a pair of braces. If your trousers don't come with brace buttons, have a tailor put them on (exterior if possible), it'll be around $15-$20. Not only are braces more comfortable, they keep your trousers at the correct level all night. I would also suggest a pair of sock suspenders, as silk socks do have a tendency to slide down.

Good luck!

I knew I left something out!How could I forget braces??I was thinking something like these (the silk ones on the bottom right):

http://uniformalwearhouse.com/apages/tuxedoacces2.html

I was under the impression that the brace buttons should go on the interior of the waistband,but I'm probably wrong.

And I was also under the impression that a marcella waistcoat was perfectly correct with a marcella fronted shirt and black tie,but again,I'm probably wrong.And the waistcoat from VSC is the one I'll probably go with.What's a few dollars more considering it should last for quite some time.Oh,and how does one wear sock suspenders with OTC socks?It seems it would be a bit difficult.What is your opinion of the collar?AndI'm on the fence regarding opera pumps.I like the look,but as these ones aren't the correct version,I may just go with patent lace ups.

 

[vitanola]

The 2 1/4" wing collar was generally worn with business wear in the '90's and 'oughts by rather elderly men. It was worn with formal wear in the 'seventies and 'eighties, as I recall, and had been most popular for daily wear amongst they yopunger folks in the immediate post-war period. Since the early twentieth century, a rather shorter wing collar was considered correct with formal and semi-formal ensembles, being generally 1 1/2" (occasionally as low as 1 1/4", as with most modern "tuxedo" shirts) to at the very most 1 3/4" high.

 

[cufflinkmaniac]

The 2 1/4" wing collar was generally worn with business wear in the '90's and 'oughts by rather elderly men. It was worn with formal wear in the 'seventies and 'eighties, as I recall, and had been most popular for daily wear amongst they yopunger folks in the immediate post-war period. Since the early twentieth century, a rather shorter wing collar was considered correct with formal and semi-formal ensembles, being generally 1 1/2" (occasionally as low as 1 1/4", as with most modern "tuxedo" shirts) to at the very most 1 3/4" high.

Again,I'm probably wrong,but were not detachable wing collars worn with formal attire up until after WWII?And were they not also nearly unheard of in the detachable form in the '70's?

 

[DerMann]

I knew I left something out!How could I forget braces??I was thinking something like these (the silk ones on the bottom right):

http://uniformalwearhouse.com/apages/tuxedoacces2.html

I was under the impression that the brace buttons should go on the interior of the waistband,but I'm probably wrong.

And I was also under the impression that a marcella waistcoat was perfectly correct with a marcella fronted shirt and black tie,but again,I'm probably wrong.And the waistcoat from VSC is the one I'll probably go with.What's a few dollars more considering it should last for quite some time.Oh,and how does one wear sock suspenders with OTC socks?It seems it would be a bit difficult.What is your opinion of the collar?AndI'm on the fence regarding opera pumps.I like the look,but as these ones aren't the correct version,I may just go with patent lace ups.

Originally, brace buttons were on the outside of trousers, as the waistcoat would hide them. If you're going to be wearing a waistcoat, might as well have them on the outside, just tradition, otherwise it doesn't matter.

From what I know, marcella on marcella looks too contrived (same reason why you don't do matching tie and pocket square). Could be wrong, and a lot is just personal taste. You'll still be the only one wearing anything marcella.

The marcella front shirt was the next evolution in formal shirts. Most traditionalists stuck with the stiff fronted shirt rather than the marcella, and later soft fronted, shirt. Personally, I think a stiff fronted shirt looks nicer, especially if you can get a really good starch on it.

If you're wearing OTC socks, suspenders are unnecessary. I prefer wearing shorter socks and suspenders, though. More fun and all that.

I have the exact same collar. Great quality, and it looks amazing. I prefer the high Imperial collar, though. I'm an elitist, and there will be other people wearing wing tipped collars, so I upped the formality and got that one too. Personal choice, really, but both are great collars, you've done well.

For the same price you can get a pair of Florsheim lace-up patent leather oxfords (plain- or cap-toe). They're more versatile and utilitarian.

 

[DerMann]

Again,I'm probably wrong,but were not detachable wing collars worn with formal attire up until after WWII?And were they not also nearly unheard of in the detachable form in the '70's?

I think he was referring to the 1870s. It's always weird to hear people refer to decades in other centuries like that, makes my mind spin.

 

[Slim Portly]

Waistcoat:

http://uniformalwearhouse.com/apages/tuxedo_vests_pique.html

I have this exact waistcoat and the matching bowtie. In error I ordered the backless waistcoat and the pre-tied bowtie when I intended to purchase the full-back and self-tie. No great matter. I will warn you in case you care, the pockets on the waistcoat are not only "blanks" but there is very little room and material should you wish to have a tailor create functioning pockets, as was my intention.

 

[cufflinkmaniac]

I have this exact waistcoat and the matching bowtie. In error I ordered the backless waistcoat and the pre-tied bowtie when I intended to purchase the full-back and self-tie. No great matter. I will warn you in case you care, the pockets on the waistcoat are not only "blanks" but there is very little room and material should you wish to have a tailor create functioning pockets, as was my intention.

Well,considering I want to use a pocket watch,I'll definetly go with the VSC model,that way I don't even have to have any special work to allow for studs.

 

[cufflinkmaniac]

Originally, brace buttons were on the outside of trousers, as the waistcoat would hide them. If you're going to be wearing a waistcoat, might as well have them on the outside, just tradition, otherwise it doesn't matter.

From what I know, marcella on marcella looks too contrived (same reason why you don't do matching tie and pocket square). Could be wrong, and a lot is just personal taste. You'll still be the only one wearing anything marcella.

The marcella front shirt was the next evolution in formal shirts. Most traditionalists stuck with the stiff fronted shirt rather than the marcella, and later soft fronted, shirt. Personally, I think a stiff fronted shirt looks nicer, especially if you can get a really good starch on it.

If you're wearing OTC socks, suspenders are unnecessary. I prefer wearing shorter socks and suspenders, though. More fun and all that.

I have the exact same collar. Great quality, and it looks amazing. I prefer the high Imperial collar, though. I'm an elitist, and there will be other people wearing wing tipped collars, so I upped the formality and got that one too. Personal choice, really, but both are great collars, you've done well.

For the same price you can get a pair of Florsheim lace-up patent leather oxfords (plain- or cap-toe). They're more versatile and utilitarian.

Outside it is then.And thanks for the info on the Florseims!I'll save the opera pumps for when I'm a bit older and have the appropriate funding to get the full monty (and a better dinner jacket):

http://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=1&Section_Id=527&Product_Id=1065328&Parent_Id=522

And while I would be all too happy to wear an imperial collar with morning dress,I'd rather wear a wing collar with black tie.I think it will stand out,because most if not everyone else would be wearing the wimpy attached wing collars as opposed to the high,starched,pure white elegance that is the detachable collar.And the only real detterent for me getting a boiled front shirt,is the laundering.There's a place in VA that does collars (assuming they haven't closed),but I'm not sure about shirts,and I certainly don't want to have to send one shirt all the way to England so that Barker Group can launder it.I understand marcella doesn't require special laundering.By the way,should the marcella waistcoat be starched?

 

[cufflinkmaniac]

Originally, brace buttons were on the outside of trousers, as the waistcoat would hide them. If you're going to be wearing a waistcoat, might as well have them on the outside, just tradition, otherwise it doesn't matter.

From what I know, marcella on marcella looks too contrived (same reason why you don't do matching tie and pocket square). Could be wrong, and a lot is just personal taste. You'll still be the only one wearing anything marcella.

The marcella front shirt was the next evolution in formal shirts. Most traditionalists stuck with the stiff fronted shirt rather than the marcella, and later soft fronted, shirt. Personally, I think a stiff fronted shirt looks nicer, especially if you can get a really good starch on it.

If you're wearing OTC socks, suspenders are unnecessary. I prefer wearing shorter socks and suspenders, though. More fun and all that.

I have the exact same collar. Great quality, and it looks amazing. I prefer the high Imperial collar, though. I'm an elitist, and there will be other people wearing wing tipped collars, so I upped the formality and got that one too. Personal choice, really, but both are great collars, you've done well.

For the same price you can get a pair of Florsheim lace-up patent leather oxfords (plain- or cap-toe). They're more versatile and utilitarian.

Could you link me as to where to get the Florsheims?I looked on their site (a carbon copy of the Stacy Adams website),and didn't see any patent leather.

 

[Rhabryn]

Florsheim Lace-Ups

http://www.shoebuy.com/florsheim-lasalle/12931

I've enjoyed these, and theyre availible in our 12 Wide size.
They've got a great "slight point" to them, and they actually have a cuban heel - a very subtle one... The slight point is nice, as it elongates the line of the leg (this shoe is very Non-Clunky.. which is hard to find at our 12 Wide size).

They're not patent though.


Patent: http://www.shoebuy.com/stacy-adams-concorde-11003/35304
I have these, but they don't have them in 12 Wide at the moment.
They are nice, though they're a non-leather sole (though they walk and feel like leather). The contrast on the top of the sole might be less formal though...

 

[Tomasso]

I don't care for wing collar shirts with semi-formal. It screams RENTAL.

 

[DerMann]

Outside it is then.And thanks for the info on the Florseims!I'll save the opera pumps for when I'm a bit older and have the appropriate funding to get the full monty (and a better dinner jacket):

http://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=1&Section_Id=527&Product_Id=1065328&Parent_Id=522

And while I would be all too happy to wear an imperial collar with morning dress,I'd rather wear a wing collar with black tie.I think it will stand out,because most if not everyone else would be wearing the wimpy attached wing collars as opposed to the high,starched,pure white elegance that is the detachable collar.And the only real detterent for me getting a boiled front shirt,is the laundering.There's a place in VA that does collars (assuming they haven't closed),but I'm not sure about shirts,and I certainly don't want to have to send one shirt all the way to England so that Barker Group can launder it.I understand marcella doesn't require special laundering.By the way,should the marcella waistcoat be starched?

I shamelessly pinched that image from the formal wear primer, when I asked about Imperial collars and white tie. It's a much older, conservative look. You can see how the wing tipped collar evolved from it (or so I imagine). With an Imperial collar, you don't have the luxury of looking down, so you kind of have too look down your nose at people As you can see in the picture, the collar is worn with white and black tie dress. I'm not saying that you should, in particular, but I did and I prefer it for strange reasons.

As for laundering of any starched garments, I would suggest taking the Herculean effort upon yourself. I've starched the bib myself, and it's really not that hard, just time consuming. Another reason why I prefer Imperial collars is that they're very easy to launder. Just wash, starch, and curl - don't have to deal with tips. The shirt is also very simple, just starch it flat.

Marcella waistcoats should never be starched, and to be frank, I haven't a clue if the shirts are, I would assume not, as they're meant to be a step away from the old, conservative boiled front shirts.

As for the specific Florsheim model, I can't be certain of it. The ones I have look like the Edgar model listed on Zappos.com, but mine are definitely patent.

 

[vitanola]

Again,I'm probably wrong,but were not detachable wing collars worn with formal attire up until after WWII?And were they not also nearly unheard of in the detachable form in the '70's?

Wrong '70's. I was referring to the GRANT '70's, not the NIXON '70's.

These collars were available in varying heights, by the 'teens, at latest the standard for formal wear was about 1 1/2 inches. A 1 1/2" collar works well with a modern dinner jacket, and gives a rather antique liik, without appearing "cosurmey", as would a 2 1/2" collar.

 

[vitanola]

I don't care for wing collar shirts with semi-formal. It screams RENTAL.

Would you use a pointed collar, as with a business suit? Perhaps a four-in-hand necktie? Or a banded collar shirt with no tie and a button cover, like a moving picture actor in the early 1990's? I know that "moderns" sport all sorts of non-traditional details (I have even seen a recent Brooks Brothers catalog illustration showing cuffed formal trousers with the satin stripe!)

I do not care for the general run of modern shirts with attatched wing collars, either, but a detatchable wing collar of the appropriate design certainly does not look like a rental.

 

[tonyb]

As long as we're on this topic ...

I'm searching for a formal shirt to wear with my 1940s-vintage dark blue double-breasted tuxedo. Most modern formal shirts I've come across look wrong for this purpose. I'm thinkin' I want a lay-down collar (is that the right name for it?), and wider-than-the-norm-these-days pleats an the front panel. (Those quarter-inch jobs just look too wimpy alongside those big-ol' lapels.) And I believe I want it in all-cotton.
Where might I find such a shirt?

 

[cufflinkmaniac]

As long as we're on this topic ...

I'm searching for a formal shirt to wear with my 1940s-vintage dark blue double-breasted tuxedo. Most modern formal shirts I've come across look wrong for this purpose. I'm thinkin' I want a lay-down collar (is that the right name for it?), and wider-than-the-norm-these-days pleats an the front panel. (Those quarter-inch jobs just look too wimpy alongside those big-ol' lapels.) And I believe I want it in all-cotton.
Where might I find such a shirt?

http://www.josbank.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=1&Section_Id=6210&pcount=&Product_Id=290591

Well,you beyond any possible doubt want all cotton.These have the widest pleats I've seen.You may also consider custom.

 

[tonyb]

Thank you.

 

[cufflinkmaniac]

Wrong '70's. I was referring to the GRANT '70's, not the NIXON '70's.

These collars were available in varying heights, by the 'teens, at latest the standard for formal wear was about 1 1/2 inches. A 1 1/2" collar works well with a modern dinner jacket, and gives a rather antique liik, without appearing "cosurmey", as would a 2 1/2" collar.

I think it's more a matter of personal taste,and neck height.