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Discussion in 'Outerwear' started by ton312, Jun 12, 2020.
Oh yes you do. All it takes is falling awkwardly and hitting your head against the curb. Poof. Gone.
30 40 kmh is slow, i fell several time at higher speed not by much like say 60 70 kmh before i braked and fell from, one time to avoid old bicycle rider going my way at my lane on a one way road, I tried to avoid one way he mirrored me , tried another way he mirrored me again so i just braked rather than hitting him, so i bent my shifter other than that not much, just scraped hand near the thumb, and the side of my arm ididnt have leather at the time. The guy didnt even stop, he just looked at me angry and cursed haha
My best friend just fell from the second step of a ladder, less than 50cm, he landed on his feet, lost his balance backwards, hit the back of his head on a wall. He got a skull fracture, internal bleeding, spent 5 days in hospital.
That was 3 months ago, he still cannot work because of horrible headaches, has to spend most of the day in the dark in silence, cannot read or look at screens, has lost all sens of smell an taste, and has no idea when or if he will get to do work again. (he is a heating tech/ plumber).
Hitting your head at 30km/h could kill you or incapacitate you for the rest of your life.
Yea but then we have to wear head protection all time when that argument applied. You can be replacing bulb and fell and die, or step into the shower slipped and hit your head against sharp corner and die.
I'm not saying that, i was just using this accident to illustate the fact that you don't have to be going fast to hurt your head.
Your head will usually lose when coliding with hard things, even at low speed.
It doesn't take much, that's all i meant.
Fair point too... Being such an old fart, my original driving licence would allow me to ride a 49cc or less (subject to a speed limit of 30mph, as memory serves), without any further licence whatever. I have to admit that I've been tempted by one of those little Mash Fifty-50 bikes for city use. Probably many folks, even if they need to do more work for that bottom level (I think it is just a CBT now), also see it as a way to get to work on a step-up from a pushbike (especially if they're on an electric scooter), so proably on't think more about it than wearing their regular work clothes plus the mandated helmet.
Probably goes way back too - thinking about it, aside from few of them bothering with helmets, Rockers did by and large wear the protective clothing that was available at the time, as compared to mods. Course, it's only really recently that the average scooter has been bigger than 50cc, so maybe that also plays a role in perception of risk.
Culture is an interesting factor. I remember my first trip to India, just about a decade ago. I went to Bangalore, and there were bikes everywhere. You couldn't move for them - or acres of helmet stalls on every roadside. There was clearly no legal obligation to wear a helmet, but official advice - "Be Safe, Wear Helmet" - was everywhere. The cultural norm there seemed to be that a rider was expected to wear a helmet, but not pillion, which I found fascinating.
Freedom of hteir own choices, I guess. Without getting into the politics of healthcare, I think the very different nature of our healthcare systems dopes play apart - whereas in the US if you have a serious spill you might argue it's on your own insurance, over here there's always a strong moral argument brought to bear that taking big risks of injury put undue pressure on the NHS. Different stroeks for different folks, I guess - everyone has their own perception of risk, and what risks they're prepared to run.
Rollie Free! Yeah, it looks mad.... though tbh I'd have thought that by the time you get up to a certain speed on a bike, you're so vulnerable in any off that there comes a point where the protective gear is of limited help. (c/f F1 for cars...). I'm told the reason Wall of Death performers never wear a helmet is that in the kind of accident they're likely to have it would make no difference. Probably why they can't get insurance working in a show like that. I find them amazing - I love to see a WoD; the fact they have the testicular fortitude to go at that is as much as the show itself what fascinates me! I don't know whether - like Rollie - they're brave or just nuts. I suspect it might be both!
Ah, good, old-fashioned, toxic masculinity! Yeah, I'm sure that still comes up. There's also the freedom of choice argument, which was advocated in the UK Parliament during the debate on the legal change in 1973 (its chief advocate being none other than Enoch Powell) - the line ran that 80% of bikers chose to wear helmets, the other 20% should be allowed to take an informed risk as freedom of choice, but it was effectively trumped by the 'pressure on limited NHS resources' consideration.
It seems mad to me to go on a biek without a helmet, but again it all comes back to what level of risk you're prepared to accept, riding itself being a managed risk to begin with. Younger folks also tend to run more risk - my psychologist friends tell me that the curent thinking is that the human mind's perception of risk is not fully formed until our mid twenties.
By the late 70s / early 80s, virtually every biker you saw in the UK it seemed was wearing a cross-zip with a mandarin collar, along the lines of the Lewis Super Monza (which they released in 1978, though it was a tweaked version of the Lewis Monza that had been around before that). The Perfecto type was very solidly associated by the mid eighties with the punk rock and heavy metal subcultures (the latter also seemed, at least in N Ireland when I was a kid there) to cross over to some extent with the element at least of the motorcycling fraternity that cast itself in the "bad boy" mould. I think that also had a big influence on the D-pocket Arnie wore in the second film, along side the Guns'n'Roses stuff and the very Hollywood 'outlaw biker' iconography in general. TBh, looking back while I wouldn't have gotten it at eighteen, there's a lot of the T21 imagery that echoes Brando as Strabler to me. I wodner if that was also an influence / reference point for the designer, albeit subtly. Some of the promo ashots with Arnie on the bike dfinitely had echoes of Brando's poses.
Depends what you land on, really. 'bicycle speeds' have been enough to cause fatal head injuries to many people over the years. I've known documented cases of bicyclists who died falling off a stationary bike and headplanting the kerb.
Certainly all posibilities, though when it comes to managing risk, I suspect tyhose situations are statistical outliers.
If you ask the same people why they don't wear helmets, nor safety belts, they'd answer that it is their life that is in danger, they shouldn't even get fines if spotted by the police (though this does not justify calling somebody a sissy if he decides to put on his belt)... Well, I've decided to ignore any "freedom of choice" argument when I found out how much an accident induced paraplegic person costs the public health system (= the tax payers) per year.
I'm honestly not too surprised. They raised their prices too much. I've been into the LA store a few times and am amazed at how much they cost given the quality. They're not bad, but they're not worth what they charge IMO.
I actually think that doing more slim fit, fashion style jackets was a BAD idea. That makes them look like fast fashion jackets for much more money. They've priced themselves into the high end jacket market with brands like Aero and Thedi and people willing to pay that much money aren't going to get a Schott.
Also, while I'm saying all of this, I still see people buying Schott jackets online. Maybe the Chicago location didn't work out, but I still see people buying new Schott jackets.
I guess what I'm saying is that Schott doesn't have it's place in the market that it used to have. I used to see them as sort of a leather jacket equivalent of Red Wing, but now they cost as much as a Wesco equivalent without the Wesco level quality. I'm not saying they're doomed or anything like that. I have no idea how well the company is doing overall. This is just what I see as a jacket enthusiast.
I think you’re exactly right dude. I tried on a couple CXL perfectos in store and I have to say the quality and fit was quite good. The problem is, there is absolutely no modification available and the cost actually exceeded Aero. If I don’t want a fixed belt, well that’s just too bad. It is what it is and there’s no changing a thing. I was pleasantly surprised at how the stuff fit OTR though. They’ve refined their patterns nicely but in spite of all that, even in the face of instant gratification, I would never choose one over a custom jacket, built to my specs.
If they dropped their prices on their upper end gear to the $750-$850 range they would have my attention. $12-$1400 as is perfecto...No thanks.
Repeating myself but you're paying for the brand. What you get with Schott is a Made in USA product with a 100 years of tradition, and a classic. Might not mean much to us and yeah, sure we know better than to care for that kinda thing (or do we?) but it's a good story to have.
And also, Perfecto diagonal zip is still a mean jacket. I mean, in all honesty, when it comes to mobility and functionality, Aero's MC jacket doesn't even compare. 618 is a much superior pattern.
It's actually so good that now you got Fine Creek, which is considered to be the best in the business, directly copying a 60's Schott jacket and that stuff's flying off the shelves at $2.5K. Why'd they do that if Schott isn't worth the price? Schott obviously makes a good jacket if of all those makers of the past, FC openly admit Schott made the perfect cross zip. Why not, y'know, get it, then? The original and all.
You get something with each maker. With Aero you get a jacket built to your specs. With RMC and FC, you get Shinki and quality, with Schott you get to wear the original (and a good jacket, too).
And I've had their premium range jackets. That CR I had, not even LW managed to top that one. I'd put them at the same level, in fact.
Are they still family owned? Most companies sell or go public, and for some that marks the end. Frye for example.
I have to agree with this. The Perfecto 613H I recently picked up used is about as perfect for this cross zip style as I can imagine. If the 613/618 pattern fits you, then you're going to be wearing a really nice jacket with all of the Americana to go with it.
I believe they are still family owned.
I didn't have much of an opinion about Schott as they didn't have anything that really caught my eye until I had the chance to step in one of their stores.
I was wearing my LW Speed Demon. I took it off to try one of their Perfecto, and it was like going from HD TV to SD, the loss in sharpness almost palpable. It is true that the pattern is nice, it fit pretty well, this still didn't help alleviate the feeling that I was going from a hypercar to a nice day to day sedan.
Edit: I feel they are overpriced for what they are.
Yeah...I never thought Schott offered a top tier leather jacket although they had history with their Perfecto MC crosszip 'style'. As far as quality and usual fit, they just fall into the common OTR category IMO. Bought my first one in the '70s and still have one hanging in my closet...but, I too, found that there are much better choices out there. I favor my Vansons for better construction, leather, pattern and quality among others.
Aggree, bad thing happen when you hit the back of the head or neck. But with low speed you have more time to maneuver or just to stop. Same with running down through stair or walking down through stair.
There is Schott and then there is Schott. Sure, the regular Perfecto line can be a hit or miss but the high end models and colabs seem to be as good as anything out there. Schott Horween CXL jackets, for example...
This Arabica is seriously so much nicer than my LW, I'd trade it in a nanosecond and LW has some of the nicest hide I've ever seen. Either way, this jacket does look like a top tier product. I mean, at least to me. Dunno, maybe I'm biased but I honestly can't think of anything right now that looks so much better. Or at all.
Nice, cogent summary and opinion there, Edward.
Exactly. I buddy I used to ride with twisted his ankle while coming to a stop at a light. The ground was not level and the bike ended up tipping over. No big deal at the time but he went to a hospital to make sure nothing was broken. It ended up being a small fracture. While in the hospital and they were tending to his injury, a blood clot formed in his leg. It traveled to his heart killing him. This man was hard as woodpecker lips, a warrior... and a fractured ankle took him out. When you are out of onions you are out of onions. That said, I always wear a full face helmet.
Some interesting discussions here!
A point about Schott prices - my understanding is that you can get the same jacket for less from anyone who carries their jackets retail, rather than buying directly from Schott. Still I agree - they're way overpriced! Their "sale" prices are more in line with a reasonable starting price for a new jacket in my opinion, especially if you consider the vast array of second hand Schott options floating around.
What they offer in exchange seems to be great customer service: they answer questions by phone or email pretty quickly; they ship VERY quickly; they accept returns easily; so on. With this being their model, its not too surprising that any particular brick and mortar location would not be super successful. Its entirely possible they were keeping the Chicago location open as long as it broke even or close to even, with the real return being brand awareness and other "intangibles" to benefit the overall operation.
As to fast fashion, I feel like we may have hit a peak with its prevalence and we are now swinging in the opposite direction. H&M stock has been crashing for years. People, especially younger folks which will be directing retail trends for some time to come, are FAR more interested in environmental effects of fast fashion than folks a generation or two older. Aside from buying second hand, the best sustainable options are in fact just well made clothes that don't fall apart (stopping the buying and trashing cycle which drives all the negatives from fast fashion). While many factors lead to any particular overall retail environment, I'm encouraged by the decline of a lot of the fast fashion giants here in the USA, and think we may see much more interest in well-made garments built to last.
IT's all hugely subjective, of course, but ten years ago, here in the UK you'd have paid maybe GBP350 for a 618 or 118, while the Aero equivalent would have been about GBP550. At that point, I felt the difference was about right. My 618 I bought used for a bit less than a Hercules brand jacket would be new now. I'm not convinced the standard SChotts are significantly better than the likes of Hercules, though if coruse you're always gonig to pay more for US manufacture.
Undoubtedly there's a huge brand tax to be had in a Schott. I can see paying a bit more for US manufacture if you either want to support the US economy in general, or that business specifically. One of the reasons I like Aero is that by buying Made in the UK I'm at least cutting down on airmiles in my product a little; Im' also sure that I'm buying from a company that treats its orkforce well and pays a decent wage. It's all very subjective, but I'm not prepared to pay for anything like "brand" or "heritage" as those are, if not wholly unimiportant to me, not worth the upcharge between what Schott charge and what I'd be prepared to pay for them. I don't think Schott have helped themselves with the massive price rises in recent yeas. They were always going to go upwards in price, but relative to Aero, Lewis and others they're now right up there - I could buy an Aero and my tainsfare home from Scotland for the price of a 618/118 in London, or pay outright for a Lewis. And one thing I'd say for Lewis is that at least it's likely to be true when they claim to have invented a specfic design! Maybe I'm less sold on Schott's 'heritage' givne how much of it is an invention of their marketing department...
Once you get into fit, I think that's where subjective brand preferences really start to hit. The 618 I bought used fits me in a way the Aero never quite did - I've got to sell the Aero because it retains the original, historically correct cut of Brando's durable (so I'd need a size up for it to be 'correct'), whereas the 618 is very boxy, so fits my shape. It's all subjective, as I keep saying, but comparign the two side by side I can't get over hte idea of the Schott costing close to the Aero, never mind more.
Is that what you're getting with a Schott, though? I'm not convinced the patterns in their main line are the same as they were in the 60s. The 118 has definitely been reshaped since the late eighties.
CAn't comment on their higher end stuff.... but that's another price bracket again, way beyond what I could ever justify.
Vanson I've not owned as of yet, but it seems that while they have also gone up in price here owing to the weak pound against the dollar these last few years, they haven't soared in price to quite the same degree. Used to be a Vanson would be about the same price as a Perfecto, now they're often markedly cheaper from what I see.