Schott x Shinki Jacket

Discussion in 'Outerwear' started by Monitor, Nov 17, 2020.

  1. Edward

    Edward Bartender

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    It'll neve happen for obvious reasons, but I'd love to see a cost breakdown for each of these labels. For the basic production-run Schotts - the 118s, 618s and such - I'd be surprised if the total production cost per unit, given the quantities in production, will be as high as a company producing smaller runs or even on a to-order basis.

    Currency differences are definitely part of what has pushed up the price of a Schott in the UK, though that alone wouldn't account for quite the rise I've seen (more than doubled and then some in the last decade). Definitely, though, I'd expect to pay more than an Asian-made jacket once US labour comes into play. That is one reason I like so-called 'first world' manufacture;

    That's quite a leap of 'for the sake of discussion' - part of the calculation for me is very much that I *don't* value the "heritage" nature of the brand, given that 99% of it is completely fabricated by Schott's marketing department! I mean - "we invented the motorcycle jacket" and all the rest... (I'm not just down on Schott that way; if I wasn't over Les Paul style guitars already, there'd be a long list of those I'd look at before even considering a Gibson.... I'm just not big on "we did it first" as a reason to pay more, or to select it over something else. Subjective - a lot of folks would disagree, I know, which is fine for them. I certainly don't want to suggest my subjective choices are for anyone else. There are companies where my decision to buy or not are based on intangibles - there's several companies across a whole host of markets that I would never give money to even if they were the only option for something I like because of ethical concerns or company politics or whatever.

    If all things were equal, then it really would be down to solely personal preference on branding and such... perhaps even saving on postage or import tax! For me though, they simply aren't. I've got both an Aero and a Schott 618 in the same style. Ironically I'm selling the Aero, because the size I bought (used) some years ago doesn't work on my waist, but side by side for me it's a vastly nice jacket than the Schott. I prefer the leather on the Aero (both steer), just has a nicer hand and feel to me - purely subjective, I'm sure, but still fairly like for like (the Aero is not Horween CXL steerhide). I also prefer the cut on the Aero (I just need a different size) as much closer to the late 40s/ early 50s Durable cut that I like than the Schott. The Schott is a good pattern while I'm carrying a bit more weight - very boxy, straight up and down. Works with a different body shape for now. WE'll see how I go when I need to belt it in more - they can creat an odd 'skirting' effect if pulled to the tighter end of the belt. Side by side, the Aero looks much classier to me - subjective, again. There are a few other differences that I prefer in the Aero as well - options such as an inner pocket I'd trust - there's no way I'd ever trust anything to the inner pocket in my 618, too low down and no fastening. I don't ever use handwarmers as such, but I like to stick gloves and so on in them at times; the Schott, weirdly, is a real pig on me to actually get at those pockets while I'm wearing it. The other big advantage on Aero is choice of lining (I'm not a big fan of the quilted liner in my Schott), and hardware - and at that, plain hardware. If I was to lose the Schott, I might consider replacing it with a used 118 if they still have the plain hardware. It's not a dealbreaker as such on my Schott, but I would every time rather it had plain snaps over the branded ones. (Bit like the Lewis Leather logo patch - not in itself a reason I'd turn it down, but would look so much better without). Those sort of factual things aside, I just honestly find the Aero a much nicer jacket that sells at a price I'm currently prepare to pay - the Schott isn't. It's all subjective. I like the Schott an I'll keep wearing it (though it gets less wear than my Johnson D-pocket, which is a nicer jacket too), but while I plan eventually to buy a new Aero, if the Schott got lost or stolen, it's not one I'd feel an urgency to replace.

    I don't consider them to have a legitimate claim on the jacket as "theirs" - Levi's in my eyes, would have more credibility in claiming the five-pocket jean "belongs" to them. I'd still do a spit take at the idea that that alone made them worth more, though. I'm sure Schott think differently - subjective, again - and clearly they have enough folks agree with them to keep succeeding in business so good luck to them. I certainly don't begrudge them their success, evne if some of their marketing rubs me up the wrong way.

    Well, that's where I disagree. For me, even aside from Aero's M2M / M2O model and the additional options that brings, the SChott just isn't a jacket I'd be prepare to spend GBP eight or nine hundred on (which is what they are being priced at here in London). Half that, maybe. But it keeps coming back to perceived value in the market, all done and said. To me, the Schott just isn't worth that. Clearly, though, as I say plenty enough people disagree that they can stay in business without, I'm cure, crying too much over the lost sales to me personally. ;)

    Yes, Field do bespoke, Aero do made to order with a touch of tweaking to made to measure from a standard pattern. Different business models - sadly all too often confused on the UK market now since a shameful court decision against the Savile Row association to allow the M2M online suit retailers King & Allen to get away with claiming to be bespoke.

    It's all the power of branding - consumer capitalism. Reminds me of the middle eighties - Gibson, pre-Slash, couldn't give Les Pauls away back then, hopelessly out of fashion. Slash helped (even if, ironically, his original AFD Les Paul was actually a luthier-made counterfeit. A very good one, yes, a great guitar, but no more a legit Gibson than the cheapest Chinese fake), but the real turning point was when Gibson effectively doubled the price and began to sell the guitars as a luxury, lifestyle brand as much as practical instruments. After that they couldn't get 'em out fast enough. It's a basic facet of the "free market" - perceived value. As long as enough people to make it profitable perceive a value in these things, they can keep charging the money. Value - like beauty - will always be in the eye of the beholder.
     
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  2. Edward

    Edward Bartender

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    What SChotts are EU made these days? Is it particular lines or markets? My 618 is US made, though I don't know it's exact age (other than somewhere around 2008ish).
     
  3. trainspotter

    trainspotter One of the Regulars

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    I am sure none of us is trying to or even going to change another's opinion on what constitutes a great leather jacket

    What I am trying to imply & I am sure @Monitor will agree, is that WE feel Schott's newer offerings in Horween (&Shinki) are as good as Aero, which is a great bar IMO. A newbie looking for a great jacket which will last his lifetime & beyond will be more than happy buying an Aero or Schott's newer offering.

    Yes some of us have moved on from Schott/Aero levels of pricing to even higher tiers, and at that level their expectations are surely going to be different and rightly so

    But for a huge majority of people, a $1k leather jacket is as much as they are going to spend on a garment, & for them Schott's horween offerings present a great alternative to Aero is all I am saying.
     
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  4. dannyk

    dannyk One Too Many

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    They have a European Line I believe they all start with LC as the identification. I come across them all the time. The websites offer diffferent products. As far as the classics like the 618 those are all made in America and are the same. Then we get into the cost and tax and conversion which we have covered back and forth haha. So just to that point compare the websites even they have completely different designs and jackets available across markets minus those classics.
     
    Edward likes this.
  5. ton312

    ton312

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    LOL...sorry, couldn't resist. :p
    6C684EE2-05AB-4D49-81B3-2575629B8EEB.jpeg
     
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  6. Edward

    Edward Bartender

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    Certainly I don 't think we'll ever all change each others' minds - which is not to say the discussion is pointless. I enjoy seeing different points of view on these issues and what it is that people value about the brands and styles they favour.

    To an extent, though, I think we're all at cross purposes as well - I can only confine my comments on Schott to the classic production range. It wouldn't make any difference to me if those were made in Horween, but I can't claim experience of their very limited edition stuff in terms of how it handles or wears (as opposed to views on the look of it) as I've not handled them.

    Ah, I wondered what the 'LC' I've seen online was about. I wonder too if they are no longer officially exporting the US product to the UK - that might help in part to explain why it has jumped in price (both new and used).
     
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  7. red devil

    red devil Call Me a Cab

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    I don't know... considering I can get Johnson leather for less or Thedi in a similar price range... I wouldn't bother with Schott if I were in the US. Fact is, I didn't when I went to their flagship store in NYC.
     
  8. Monitor

    Monitor

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    12,418
    That doesn't quite stand because, while their marketing department has occasionally resorted to pure bs, the fact that...
    1. Schott has been around for a hundred years
    2. Schott has been among the pioneer makers of the motorcycle jacket as we know it
    ...remains.
    It could not have been an easy task to survive in an ever-changing world of fashion but the fact that Schott prevailed all these years while delivering a jacket that became what is possibly the most iconic piece of men's outerwear, worn by everyone and anyone, has to count for something, regardless on how we feel about branding.

    Saying that they've made a couple of leather jackets they haven't hardly puts the authenticity of the rest of their history into doubt.

    Fair enough on all points of comparison but the thing is, it's not really all too fair be comparing an Aero's MC jacket to a regular, OTR Schott 618 (even though I believe the 618 holds its own just fine). It is a much cheaper, mass produced jacket, especially was back in the days - heck, just some 8 years ago, 618 was less than 1/2 price of an Aero.

    But what I am saying that you should be comparing Aero's MC jacket to Schott's 613UST or Horween P613S - or simply that Japanese 618 in Horween. They're still substantially different jackets - as you stated, Aero's MC jacket fits much closer to the early cross-zips, with the V-shaped cut an' all, but in terms of quality & material, it all boils down to personal subjective preference. :)

    Agreed, absolutely but another thing I'm going for is tryna make people realize that both our jackets are good. Yet people seem to automatically assume that by saying that their leather jacket is as good as Schott - or more accurately, isn't infinitely better than Schott - is somehow intended as an insult toward their jacket. Which I honestly find baffling.

    I'm not saying your jacket sucks, I'm saying you should stop saying mine sucks without a single concrete shred of proof. Like, actual proof, not one mended by setting a sewing machine on a higher needle speed.

    (just to clarify, I'm sayin' your jacket as a figure of speech, don't mean you personally, @trainspotter XD)
     
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  9. trainspotter

    trainspotter One of the Regulars

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    Sure @Monitor ...I bloody love all 3 Schotts of mine and will never even think of letting them go.
    On the other hand, I do have a couple of Aero CRs I am thinking of moving(nothing related to quality, or construction, just because the sleeves are too long)

    But for my Schott P663(which is another Horween offering), I never ever thought of letting it go even though the sleeves were too long. Got 'em shortened by Dena. And love it all the more
     
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  10. indigoeagle

    indigoeagle One of the Regulars

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    Very interesting discussion.

    Regarding non-innovative Japanese makers-
    As is well known the Japanese have had a big love for Americana, well made US-clothes from the "good old times", when there was still high level craftsmanship with traditionally produced raw materials, stuff mostly from the 40s to 60s.
    This is in contrast to the mostly mass-produced low price stuff, often put together overseas with cheap raw materials from the 80s on.
    This was largely the consequences of
    * international trade deals pushed by politicians, that abolished tariff protection of these jobs,
    * PE funds taking over companies and their controllers coming up with cost cutting ways and
    * of course also often the demand of people to buy more and more stuff and lower and lower prices.

    When the Japanese couldn't find any more vintage Levis jeans or A-2 jackets, etc. they started to reproduce with the high level of detail, that is part of their culture to get as close to the original as possible or even succeed it.

    That's how companies like Buzz Rickson or The Real McCoys came into being. They are not fashion companies, even if they might (more RMC probably) slimline some designs.
    And companies like Freewheelers and a number of others are typical examples of the Japanese trait to import certain techniques, cultures, etc. and then reengineer them, so that they become something unique, very similar to the original, but still different and thus distintively Japanese. This can be seen in so many things, even in Italian pasta restaurants in Japan ;-)
    For example HLL/nowFCL was I think innovative in making Lee style jackets in HorseHide.

    So, a relatively small market niche, very high level raw materials and high level craftsmanship done in Japan lead to high prices and if demand for a certain brand is especially high, because somehow they have hit a nerve, of course they will raise prices a bit more.
    So, that led to comparatively high prices for these Japanese goods to begin with.
    And then around 5 years ago, the Yen was devalued by around 30%. So import costs of leather raw materials, etc. rose correspondingly. So that led to the first price increases for leather jackets.
    And basically since the GFC of 2008 we've had quantative easing/monetary expansion globally, which hasn't so much led to inflation in basic necessities like milk and say a PC, but for stock prices, real estate and also discretionary stuff like old Porsches, vintage Rolexes, etc. we have seen regular annual price increases from my observation more in the 5-10% range per year, than the official inflation numbers of 1 or 2%.
    Add to this the recent foreign demand for Japanese jackets (five years ago, there was hardly any store in Europe or the US selling Freewheelers, High Large Leathers/Fine Creek and now there are probably more than 20) and that has caused the relatively high prices in my opinion.

    For the European makers it was probably also a general inflation in their raw material and production costs and they also saw, how much people were willing to spend for Japanese leather jackets, so that they thought, why shouldn't they charge more.

    For me personally, it's most important how the jacket fits and the way the leather looks and ages.
    And for that I've been very satisfied with the Japanese offers, whether it's Rainbow Country, Freewheelers, RMC or Buzz Ricksons.
    They have a nice, slim fit and the leather drapes well, looks great and ages amazingly and the craftsmanship is outstanding.
    Yes, they are pricey, but they were worth it to me.

    I've also seen great jackets from Aero and Schott. I just haven't owned one yet.
     
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  11. Tom71

    Tom71 Practically Family

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    I have an older Perfecto, that I never wear, so I don´t think I have much skin in the game. What I think, when reading this massively interesting debate:

    - Is a 501 the best pair of jeans in the world?
    - Does Rolex build the best wristwatches around?
    - Is a 911 the ultimate sportscar?

    We all have our preferences and surely there are hardly really objective parameters. I do however follow the idea of wanting to own "a legend" at some point. From then onward, we may move on or stick to the 501, the Rolex, the Schott, but for me there is nothing wrong with factoring in history, name, even "story" of a product. Bottom line, I am with Monitor, although I personally don´t wear Schott (I believe they just don´t suit me much) and although I perfectly understand Carlos or DWTH´s complaints about construction deficits.
     
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  12. dannyk

    dannyk One Too Many

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    @Monitor good points on the makes. Thats a point I was trying to make somewhere in this thread haha. The history and heritage is all that stuff. Doesnt mean I like it or its good. But its part of what youre paying for. Also good points on the models. The 618 and 613 are iconic but admittedly and openly fairly generic in quality. Better than a mall jacket but not on par with other makers. Buuuuuttt they now offer a ton of way way way better models and build materials. Those are the standouts and the ones more comparable to other makers. Schott Japan is always killing it. Schott USA has started offering more of those lines here thankfully. Aero uses Horween, now Schott has tons of Horween options those should be more comparable than the generic offerings. And in the last 5-6 years Schott really has picked their game up. The stuff they are turning out is miles above where they were for most of the last 20-30 years. While I dont own many Schott jackets and again no fanboy as I already said theres way better options out there. They arent the best at anything really. But in todays world we cant just dismiss as usual old Schott. They have had some head turning beautiful pieces. I am luck most OTR jackets tagged 36 fit me to a t. I dont need bespoke or tailor made, or custom. If thats a need of yours obviously again Schott wont even be in the convo and they shouldnt be. They arent that company.
     
    Monitor likes this.
  13. Guppy

    Guppy My Mail is Forwarded Here

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    Huh? Fine Creek is a newer maker, not really established, and formerly known as High Large, but they have a name. RMC is likewise a known brand. They may not be big, but are well known to enthusiasts.
     
  14. dannyk

    dannyk One Too Many

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    Right but key word is enthusiast. Enthusiasts, bikers, movie stars, rock n rollers, a large portion of the general public know the name Schott. Any lies or inaccuracies of their marketing aside as @Monitor has pointed out. They have still existed for 100 years and been a big player in the enthusiasts, biker and fashion world. They have that cache. Those brands you mentioned don’t. They have a super small market of people like us. That’s it. I think that’s Ivan’s point and certainly one of my points. So if Schott raises prices or something and people groan they still have all that history and cache to bank on, Fine Creek can show up and charge their prices off the bat and we don’t really bat an eye. Now Japan has that cache with us. They are known in this market for producing good stuff. But it’s the marketing angle, they can show up making their version of a perfecto which is Schotts thing, their main thing, and then charge more than a perfecto. If Schott raises prices to compete or releases a new Horween or maybe someday Shinki version and its expensive people groan. But it’s Schotts design even if it’s not literally their design who knows for sure? It’s theirs for all intents and purposes, and so many companies are copying it and making high quality versions, Schott tries to compete and gets groaned about. Something about that doesn’t sit well with me or necessarily make sense.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2020
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  15. red devil

    red devil Call Me a Cab

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    I don't think this is what people are saying here, if anything they would like Schott to up their construction standards to justify these prices you are paying. Yes, they have a long history, discounting their BS of course. It has to count for something... but you also mentionned that is it is clearly not a history of excellence, their older models were much worse as far as I could read in this thread. So you are paying for a history of average?

    So why shouldn't people groan when they raise their prices but don't offera better built jacket? Sure it makes sense for the casual buyer, but for enthusiasts it is normal to groan at it. Not dissimilar to someone eating a nice burgers at small shops and groaning when McDonalds offers deluxe burgers.
     
  16. dannyk

    dannyk One Too Many

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    They have upped it. In a lot of their models compared to what they were a few years ago. And they are still cheaper than most other makes. Still cheaper than FC, or RMC, or FW. Sometimes cheaper by even a grand. So they raise price but its still cheaper. If we think more expensive should include better build if for a perfect example an RMC J-24 is 2,500 at Standard and Strange right now. Not directly comparable as they are different builds but this one is 1,400. I don think any jacket should have flaws obviously. We should hope very build comes out great. But for the sake of argument would you expect a jacket that costs 1,400 versus 2,500 to have differnces?
     
  17. red devil

    red devil Call Me a Cab

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    As an end user focused on the product and nothing else, I would definitely expect the more expensive jacket to be better and in this instance, there is a clear difference as shown by @Carlos840 . Whether you care or not is another matter.
    But why would I want to spend $1400 in this jacket when I can get Thedi, LW... Or even Tenjin Leathers for the same price?

    What do you get for $1400? A hyped up leather (you don't know if they managed to get the better hides from Shinki, as they aren't consistent), at a lower quality build. Let's even assume it is the same level as Aero (I am not saying it is or it isn't here), it is still not worth it to me, I would rather get something fomr these brands I listed above.

    Edit: Let me be clear here, I am not saying Schott is bad, but I really don't think it is worth the money they are asking. If I hadn't done my research, and didn't know these lesser known brands... I would probably be fine with Schott. But with my current knowledge, why would I ever want to bother with a Schott at these price points?
     
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  18. dannyk

    dannyk One Too Many

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    And that makes sense. On an individual level. I got every point and in fact I agree. My whole point with any of this, is that blanket dismissals of a company don’t work. And there’s a lot of marketing and currency differences that affect cost and what we expect/want. Also Schott compared to other makers is huge company with a huge product line and different products across the globe, with different levels of build and quality. So saying firmly something isn’t worth it, or that company isn’t good, or that product is bad; those are super hard things to prove especially in this case when taking about a company like this. Personally I think the entire market is out of whack and things have become way overpriced in general. The market is at one of its highest if not highest points ever. That’s including things like cost of living and inflation. So in conclusion on a very personal level I agree and understand most of peoples opinions. But there’s always another side, and a lot of factors at play to simply dismiss or judge that harshly.
     
    red devil likes this.
  19. Marc mndt

    Marc mndt One Too Many

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    I wonder whether people buy one of these Shinki Schotts because of their quality or because its a limited run and they think they'll become collector pieces (which means they might fetch high prices on the second hand/resale market)
     
  20. red devil

    red devil Call Me a Cab

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    I think the fact that it is a limited edition appeals to most. I suspect that the main audience of Schott is more casual than we are. They hear "legendary hide from Japan" and get excited about that. So I would suspect most bought because of the marketing coupled with the fact it is limited.
     
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