Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'General Attire & Accoutrements' started by PADDY, Oct 10, 2007.
No, the California collar is. It's also fatter.
This may have been posted before but I was just on Darcy Clothing's site and found this. Hope this helps someone.
You can get similar to this at paulfrederick.com for a lot less. I have one or two.
The Paul Fredrick shirts are way too short in the collar like the Van Heusen version. I do like the Paul Stewart and old Joseph and Lyman Spearpoint shirts.
#1 Would it be fare to say that a California collar is a type of spearpoint collar that has no arc cut into it so it has a wider appearance?
#2 A California collar is of 4.5 inches as apposed to collars that are spearpoint but shorter?
I think what's left out here when people are trying to find a separation between styles is that some have collar stands and some do not.
Shirts can be cut with a bigger spread or with less spread. There are many names for all the collars. The point of difference I see is the absence or presence of a collar stand.
With a collar stand it's dressier to my eye, and without it's more casual. When it comes to names I don't believe there were any uniform names for the collar, yet for the sake of the Lounge let's call the one with the stand the Chevalier, and the one without the Marc.
Chevalier: Shirt with collar stand: Dressier, looks better with tie.
There is a band of material between the body of the shirt and the collar. You might find collar says in this one.
Marc: No collar stand: Casual, Can be called California, used on a lot of work shirts. Can be easliy worn without a tie. You will rarely if ever find collar stays in this one.
The shirt body is connected directly with the body of the shirt with no band of material between the collar and the body.
By the by, I've always admired this shirt Zane is wearing in The Phantom. It has a stand and looks quite awesome, even if it's not too long.
Anywho, here are some MDA shirts.
If I may: how interesting that you find the collars without the stands to be casual because, to my eye, the pictures of Valentino and Gable you've provided seem somehow dressier, MD; perhaps it's because the accoutrements that these chaps are shown wearing with these collars add snazz and a more formal look (note they ARE wearing collar bars and ties with them, which really causes these collars to sit in place in a polished way). I wonder: *did* men wear collar-stand-less California collars without ties and collar bars very often? They seem to lack the lift and structure of the spear point collars with the collar stands (which are shown worn without ties in some of the above images)? Hmmm...my hypothesis is that the California collar ends up being the dressier of the two styles, but what do I know. Okay, back to the Powder Room for me LOL.
Here's the short and sweet of it.
Barrymore collar: like the "Duke" collar being made by ReVamp. About 4 inches long.
Hollywood collar: looks just like the Barrymore collar, but longer. About 4 1/2 inches long, and sometimes even longer.
California collar: looks more spread and fatter than the Hollywood collar, but about the same length.
In period the shirt collar without stand was called a 'convertible collar', since it can be worn open or closed, and was associated primarily with sportswear. There may have been other names, but this is the name that appears most often in literature regarding garment sewing.
It also took over when it came to WWII uniform shirts as a cheaper way of production. You can see a clear swap from uniform shirts with collar stands to shirts without that happened near the end of WWII.
Duke Ellington wearing a Hollywood collar at a jam session in NYC, 1939:
I think the phrase above in light blue is imprecise. California collars were made with stands (and collar stays!) for dress shirts; they were also made without stands for sport shirts and work shirts. (I've seen both types in person.) The fact that the collar style was "California" did not determine whether it would have a stand or not.
Being a term I heard from Jeff Beauregard almost 20 years ago, "Barrymore Collar" and hearing it often used by you to describe collars that are 4 inches or longer, I have a couple questions when it comes to historical context.
Even with this reference to the term "Barrymore Collar", is there actually an image or measurements shown to go with this?
And for clarity sake.
Point collar with points that end in a dagger tip shape, can sometimes have half moon curve to the cut. Points come together at a very acute angle.
3.5 inches or longer?
Not to be confused with the spearpoint, this would be more of a "long point collar"?
Point collar with or without a collar stand that has points that are 4 inches or longer. There is little to no curve to the collar. Often very soft with a more obtuse spread to the points when compared to the spearpoint
i like that second shirt alot
Gary Cooper wearing his newly-purchased "Duke" shirt by ReVamp.
So, without reading through the entire thread again, have we mentioned these?
Yes, I think it was mentioned somewhere. There is a so called Tony-Collar shirt from a company called Zootsuitstore but they are made of 35% cotton/65% polyester which is pretty bad imo.
I actually have one of the zootsuitstore shirts. Very cheaply made, but a quick and dirty alternative nonetheless.
Yes, of course. I have the german Signum shirts for that purpose (even cheaper on ebay). I like that I don't have to worry much if they wear out. But if I want to dress up I prefer my Vecona cotton shirts or a real vintage shirt. They are more in the price range of the Revampf Duke Shirt though. I really like that there seem to come up more options now. Some years ago the market was rather stale.
This style was apparently popular with Brooklyn gangsters of Italian descent, which is why "Goodfellas"s costumer had several key characters dressed in it. However, it has very, very limited historical precedent. Try finding a vintage photo of real people wearing a 'Tony'-esque collar: you will almost certainly come up empty-handed.
And I'm sure we all can agree that a 'Tony' collar does NOT look like a 'Barrymore' collar: