Stetson Quality Experiment "Think Tank"

[jimmy the lid]

That old thread goes to prove something that I've known for quite a while - you and feltfan are miles ahead of most of us. You're right about the thread's value though. You guys asked all the right questions, but the answers just didn't come.

I was thinking of that ad as I typed my post. It raises the question of whether there was a 7x that was not designated as clear beaver.

I am but a grasshopper in the presence of the venerable feltfan.

As far as the 7X question goes -- The Open Road Guild thread contains a post by Tony in Tarzana showing his fifties 7X Clear Beaver with the 50.00 price tag still intact. I'm inclined to believe that a $50 7X (as advertised above) would have been the Clear Beaver lid. I'm also inclined to agree with Dinerman that a Stetson 50 was, by definition, a Clear Beaver. I don't think I've seen any examples of a 7X that wasn't a Clear Beaver . Anyone know of any?

Cheers,
JtL

Edit: Here's an auction on the Bay that just ended, tying the Stetson 50 to 7X Clear Beaver: Stetson 50/7X

 

[GWD]

Does this ranking system apply to Western Hats only?

I'm curious, are there any "crossovers" in this quality ranking system with "Dress Hats"

 

[jimmy the lid]

I'm curious, are there any "crossovers" in this quality ranking system with "Dress Hats"

From the late 40's until the late 50's, Royal Stetsons were priced at $10, Royal DeLuxe Stetsons came next at $12.50, and 3X dress hats were priced at $15. As a general matter, it seems that the only "X" designation lid that was commonly part of the Stetson dress line was the 3X. That being said, it is also possible that certain dress lids were made in 7X quality -- a recent eBay auction featured a 7X version of the Stetson Vogue that was specially made for one of the Stetson employees (it's not clear whether a 7X dress hat would have been more broadly available to the public). Does anyone know of any Stetson dress lids that carried an "X" designation, other than 3X or 7X? Any other examples of 7X dress lids?

Cheers,
JtL

 

[tonyb]

Thanks! Please post some pictures of Liners and sweats if you have the means and time.

This is fun!

OK then. Here's the 20 ...

 

[tonyb]

And the 15 ...

I just pulled this hat out of its box, to make certain that the photos of the liner tip and sweatband logo, which show it to be a 3X, are indeed photos of the liner and sweatband in this hat and not some other ones that made their way into my Photobucket album. Yup. It's a 15 and a 3X.

 

[Dinerman]

That being said, it is also possible that certain dress lids were made in 7X quality -- a recent eBay auction featured a 7X version of the Stetson Vogue that was specially made for one of the Stetson employees (it's not clear whether a 7X dress hat would have been more broadly available to the public). Does anyone know of any Stetson dress lids that carried an "X" designation, other than 3X or 7X? Any other examples of 7X dress lids?

My daily wearer is a mode edge clear beaver. It had a ribbon similar to an open road, but the mode edge sets it apart as a different model.

7x clear beaver sold by Charlie's of Atlantic City. This one also has the mode edge.

But notice that this 5x is also clear beaver

 

[Lefty]

The OR seems to be the cause of many of our problems, as it seems to be the hat that has carried more price point and quality designations than any other. Aside from the Xs and the price designations, they also used the Royal terms - all of which may have appeared concurrently in Stetson's catalog at some point.

To complete this recipe for Stetson stew, throw in the clear beaver mark, mix in a little Stratoliner confusion (no Xs, no price model names, no clear beaver), add a dash of style cross-over and stir with marketing.

 

[Stan]

Lunch!

Hi,

Mmmmm. Stetson Stew! lol

So, does this mean I need to keep my vintage Stetson Open Roads in vintage stew pots instead of hatboxes?

Seriously, *very* interesting thread. I'm actually starting to see some method emerging from the marketing madness here.

Later!

Stan

 

[GWD]

Canadian Stetsons?

More confusion to add to the mix.

Did the Canadian Stetsons have the same Liner designs? I have seen one hat made in Japan and licensed by Stetson.

 

[Dinerman]

More confusion to add to the mix.

Did the Canadian Stetsons have the same Liner designs? I have seen one hat made in Japan and licensed by Stetson.

The Aquashed one I posted is Canadian. They have the same liners and logos as American ones, though they feature some different markings, like Aquashed, or "Made in Canada". The reorder tags are different, and the size tags, though the same shape and design, are gold foil instead of manila cardstock. I believe that the older style liners were used longer on the Canadian models.

And then, even with the same models, there are differences. Ex: I've seen a canadian made stratoliner with a ventilated sweatband. Small things like that.

 

[GWD]

Update on Findings

This is what I've come up with thus far.

I'm guessing at the dates and I'm not too positive on the order.

The First Generation of "Dress Hat" Quality Designations are as follows;
1930's to the Early 1940's

Standard Quality
Select Quality
Superior Quality
Extra Quality
3X Quality
5X Clear Beaver Quality

The Second Generation, Early 1940's to the Sale of Stetson

Royal
Royal DeLuxe / Royal Stetson DeLuxe
Medalist
Sovereign
Imperial
Premier

Western Hats and Open Road 1940's

No. 1 Quality
Nutria
3X
4X
7X
100

 

[GWD]

Tony B's "Twenty" is a "Sovereign" and His "Fifteen" is a 3X.....intresting[huh]

Tony, would you say your Hats are post 1949?

 

[tonyb]

Tony B's "Twenty" is a "Sovereign" and His "Fifteen" is a 3X.....intresting[huh]

Tony, would you say your Hats are post 1949?

Yup. The Ambassador (the Sovereign, or Twenty) is the Chestnut Street lid, with DEC 23 1957 stamped on the underside of the sweatband.

I strongly suspect the 3X Fifteen dates from a little earlier, probably the early 1950s, although its style kinda feels a tad earlier than that.

 

[GWD]

Yup. The Ambassador (the Sovereign, or Twenty) is the Chestnut Street lid, with DEC 23 1957 stamped on the underside of the sweatband.

I strongly suspect the 3X Fifteen dates from a little earlier, probably the early 1950s, although its style kinda feels a tad earlier than that.

Thanks! This helps tremendously! I suspect there is a third generation in the 50's that combines the dollar amount and the quality moniker.

 

[Stan]

Inflation Issues

Hi,

I'm not all that sure that the price point nomenclature (15, 20, etc) is all that useful to us at this point. Inflation is always present, so what was $15 earlier will be $20 some time later.

Of course, I can see where this would lead to the combining of quality names along with the price name. Even back in the day, this trend would tend to leave customers confused after a while....

The quality level nomenclature would seem to be of more use to us, coming along as we are so many years down the road. I'm really glad that y'all started this thread. I have to admit to being pretty well dazed and confused with all the Stetson names I've seen.

Era aside, I still need to acquire myself a couple more Stetson Open Roads in the 5X/$50 and 7X/$100 quality levels and see for myself what they're like.

I especially want to compare them to the VS I have.

Later!

Stan

 

[Dinerman]

Era aside, I still need to acquire myself a couple more Stetson Open Roads in the 5X/$50 and 7X/$100 quality levels and see for myself what they're like.

7X clear beaver was $50. 100 was $100. 5x- that's the only example I have ever seen or heard of outside of modern crap.
7x is still produced, but the examples I've felt are worse than vintage 3xs (so are the current 10xs).

 

[Lefty]

One thing that RBH pointed out in another thread is that we've never seen an Open Road with a really thin ribbon. They've all got the glossy, pretty thin ribbon, but not the shoelace sized, often longer, ribbon found on westerns. There's a 5x clear beaver somewhere on the interweb as this moment , and it's got a longer, dangling, western style ribbon and a very western bash - though it's impossible to know how long the bash has been there.

 

[GWD]

The "First Generation" "Clear Beaver Quality" "5X" is throwing me off a bit.

Should we "assume" that these were top of the line hats during this period sold open crowned and bashed by either the owner or the hatter? Or were they the "Proto-Open Roads" pre-bashed with the cattlemans crease?

Would you consider the "Cattlemans Crease" the missing link between the "Western Style" and "Dress Style"?

 

[tonyb]

The "First Generation" "Clear Beaver Quality" "5X" is throwing me off a bit.

Should we "assume" that these were top of the line hats during this period sold open crowned and bashed by either the owner or the hatter? Or were they the "Proto-Open Roads" pre-bashed with the cattlemans crease?

Would you consider the "Cattlemans Crease" the missing link between the "Western Style" and "Dress Style"?

I may not be understanding your question, GWD. If that is indeed the case, please pardon me.

But, if what you're asking is whether the crown style tells us something about the hat's vintage and/or its price and quality relative to other Stetsons of its era, I'd say not likely.

To the best of my knowledge, Open Roads came to the retailers with open crowns until, oh, 15 or 20 years ago. Maybe a little earlier than that. But I recall myself and friends buying them open crowned, and I'm not quite ancient yet.

 

[Stan]

Would you consider the "Cattlemans Crease" the missing link between the "Western Style" and "Dress Style"?

Hi,

I don't know as my thinking means much in this thread - after all I'm a student here, not one of the professors.

However, when has that ever stopped me from piping up? lol

I think this way: The Open Road as we know and love it is a Dress Western Hat. It uses the dress-weight felt and the type of ribbon used on dress hats although thinner and an edge binding ribbon. When one uses the Cattleman's Crease, then I'd call it a Dress Western.

As we see here, many folks re-shape the OR into a fedora, which removes much of the Western Style from the hat. I happen to have them both ways, and which style I put on is linked to what it is I'm doing and where it is I'm going. I always think of a fedora styling, whichever of the many creases are used, as more dressy than the cattleman's crease western styling.

In more modern terms, I'd call an OR a 'crossover' or a 'hybrid' even! lol

Somewhere around The Lounge I've read something to the effect that the traditional cowboy hat was for those that worked on the ranch and the Open Road is for the man what *owns* the ranch.

Anyway, I'd have to say 'yes' to your question. I think the Open Road is the missing link between what we'd think of as 'Western' and 'Dress' styles....

Later!

Stan