The Military

[ArrowCollarMan]

I'm just posting this to get some general imput about the Armed Forces.

See, I've got one cousin getting out of Marine Boot Camp next week, one who is trainning with the Air Force to and will eventually become a Air Force mechanic, and one who has signed up for the Marine Reserves. Naturally, I feel worried about them because there is a war on (a war, which so happens, I do not agree with) and will most likely be putting themselves in harms way.

For a while now I've been against war and against violence in general. War is devestating to everyone. My grandmother has told me stories about how her friends went off to serve in WWII and how her once big group of friends dwindled away. Some died, some lived. I'm not entirely sure how it effected her but she has told me to NEVER EVER join the military. My grandfather was in the Marine Corps in WWII; he served as a radio operator. He was captured in December of 1941 in North China and was a POW of the Japanese for the rest of the war. He was beaten, starve, tortured and worked. All of what was inflicted upon him and his comrades haunted him until the day he died.

It seems like everyone talks about how we should honor those in the armed forces and thank them for defending our nation. In some way, I feel distain but not for the people just for what its representing. I'll say again, I feel no distain what-so-ever to people who serve its just the concept of "fighting to defend our freedoms" seems too vauge and inpersonal. Also it becomes honorable to kill. The military isn't all about killing people, I know that but it just seems twisted in a way. When one is out fighting its said that, "you must kill or be killed". That sounds awful. People who were in the military don't seem to ever mention regreting it at all although when talking about war with a veteran I find that they'll mostly talk about how they had fun with their friends and good times and so on. I don't know if they ever say "I enjoyed fighting for my nation". There is alot I don't understand and alot I never will. I don't want to show disrespect to people in the military but somehow I feel I am. I'm not trying to be ungreatful either. I'm just worried about my cousins. There is nothing I can do but I've been told to just support them.

I'm confused, worried and upset. No one has told me anything I want to hear either its "Don't say anything stupid", or "You can keep your confused opinion". I've also been told why it should be honored, but I don't see honor in war. I feel like I'm looking at this all wrong. They're my family, I love them but I just don't know what to think of all this.

 

[ClassicIsBetter]

I do have experience with relatives in the Armed Forces. My brother was in the Marines. He joined about 1997 or so. He served his 4 years plus 2 years reserve, thereby fulfilling his contract. His original release date was 9/11, which was obviously postponed till a few weeks afterward. When he left for the Marines, I didn't know about it. I got an email from him one night while I was in college, stating that he was leaving for the Marines the next day and that he'd see me in 4 years. We were close at the time. My brother has known fellow Marines that committed suicide in boot camp or killed in the Iraq war. My brother is a staunch supporter of the war, and so are a lot of his fellow armed forces friends. Though no one likes war, it is unfortunately necessary, has been since before Jesus walked the earth. All I know to say is this, that the armed forces teaches responsibility, and a strong moral code. Most people coming out are better off because of it. (can't spealk for my brother - either he is a very late bloomer or is definitely hard-headed.) I'm sorry there is a war going on during the time of their service, but their possible time in the war (if they are sent) will give them experience that is beyond what us normal people will experience. Our country is better for their contribution to the Armed Forces, and they are better having served. Ask not what your country can do for you, right? Good luck and those of us that pray will pray for you.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Whether you agree or disagree with war our country needs a strong military. In my opinion theres nothing more noble for someone to do than serve your country. Things you learn about team work and the self confidence you gain are things that will help thoughout the rest of your life. And then theres the Marines....
Semper Fi

 

[Dixon Cannon]

ACM - well said and well taken!

Let me first start by saying, this conflict we're involved in is not a WAR, all government and media hype to the contrary. According to our Constitution of the United States of America, a WAR is what the President may ask of the country (As Franklin Roosevelt did so dramatically on Dec. 8, 1941), and something on which our congressional representatives vote. If passed, the Congress, the people's representatives, declare WAR.

Our current Congress of politicians have vacated their responsibility to us, the people, and have shifted their responsibility to the executive, thus to avoid accountability at the polls. So this is not WAR; much like the Korean conflict, this is a politically motivated "Police Action". All of this is of no consequence, unless of course you do actually believe in the Constitution of the United States of America.

Which brings us to the next aspect of this discussion; The Armed Forces. My father was a Marine as was his brother (who fought in the Pacific). My brother was career Army. I made the conscious decision to not join the Armed Forces - I came of age during the Vietnam Conflict (also, not a declared WAR) and growing up seeing that night after night on Huntley-Brinkley, I determined, war or not - dying in a stinking jungle for no good reason is not a good career choice. Many of my beliefs today harken back to the Vietnam era and what I saw and heard back in those days.

Any young person who is considering volunteering to "serve" needs to think long and hard about what that really means - to themselves and to those politicians that lure them. Any adult who has lived long enough to see what governments can do with other people's lives and how they can squander life and materiel for political gain, should take the time to talk to young people who are considering joining. God bless those who make the choice to volunteer and who go in with eyes wide open to the full reality of what the consequences may be. But, God save those who fantasize about some video game version of war or some misplaced concept about career training.

Any young person today who feels some need to serve and to "give back" something to their country, might better undertake a course of study about our Constitution, how to preserve it and how to hold our representatives accountable for strict adherence to it. For the best way to avoid war and the senseless, endless bloodshed it entails is to heed the words of our Founders regarding America's place in this world; "to build an America wholly free of foreign attachments. The United States must concentrate only on American interests, and while the country ought to be friendly and open its commerce to all nations, it should avoid becoming involved in foreign wars and entangling alliances."

One has to wonder about those who represent us, but not our Constitution.

Respectfully,
Dixon Cannon

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Whether you agree or disagree with war our country needs a strong military.

Yes indeed.

In my opinion theres nothing more noble for someone to do than serve your country.

And the enemy is saying, "There's nothing more noble for someone to do than serve one's religion. (In this case, an atrociously fundamentalist interpretation of Islam.)

I've come to the conclusion that there's nothing more noble for someone to do than serve his/her partner, children (if any), parents, friends, neighbors, the sick, the elderly, the poor, and so on down the line. Placed against all those things, my country appears much further down on my list.

Once a person decides to enlist, however, it becomes his/her sacred responsibility to place Duty, Honor, Country at the top of his/her list. This is as it should be.


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[carebear]

What sort of answer are you looking for? I'm not asking to be snide but when you dismiss "fighting for freedom" or "for my Country" as valid reasons because you happen to find them vague you make it hard to answer. The more complex reasons men go to war (or even fight) are also wrapped in a sense of duty and nobility and intense personal-ness that can be dismissed by those who don't feel it.

I will answer for myself as that's as far as I'm qualified. This may meander, it's hard to explain this stuff even to one's self. There are rafts of stories, true and false that try to answer these kinds of questions. Mine will be a poor substitute.

I grew up feeling (was raised I suppose) that it is the responsibility of men to protect their loved ones. That to "be a man" was in large part to be willing to die that others might live. Movie's, TV, books and church reinforced the necessity that "good" be willing to risk itself to prevent "evil" from hurting those who cannot protect themselves.

I also grew up with the understanding that not all violence is the same morally or ethically. That sometimes violence is necessary and justified as the only way to prevent violence, greater violence, of evil intent, from being done to others.

As I grew up and gained experience, knowledge and a greater intellectual sophistication I tempered my boyhood notions of "good and evil" with the knowledge that there are shades of grey, that good is not always perfect and uncorrupted and evil actions are sometimes done by those who feel their motives are justified. I still determined where those lines were for myself.

I joined the Marines in part to serve my country, to show, to myself, my willingness to put other's welfare before my own. I also did it for more personal reasons, I wanted to test myself in one of the hardest crucibles available. I wanted to see if I had what it took to be part of something greater than myself, an organization that, all mythology aside, was filled with men who faced insurmountable odds with courage and triumphed. I did.

I never faced combat, I joined as the first Gulf War was going on and was in the Reserves until getting out just after the start of Gulf II. In my last days men that I had trained and led went to war, to test themselves in yet another crucible. I think I can speak for them when I say they did not want to die, and they didn't want to kill anyone, I know I never did. But they went to war to fulfill the duty to their nation they swore to do, thus putting the welfare of others before themselves.

The fact that the worth of the mission is questioned by some really doesn't really matter, the justifiability of every war or necessity of every act of just violence has been questioned by some group or another throughout history.

My Marines, having determined they would fulfill the duty they willingly accepted months or years before, also went to protect their fellow Marines. They swore to protect the men they had served beside, their brothers, to not leave them behind on the field and to not act a coward and stay behind while they went into danger.

Finally, and at this point I'll speak for myself, I was going to go to see if I "had what it took" to stand up to fire, to act rather than freeze. You can watch all the movies, read all the stories, daydream all the "what if's" but until you have faced a situation where your life is truly in danger and the circumstances are far beyond your control you don't know something critical about yourself. This is in part why people climb mountains, freefall parachute or dive into caves. You have to get out on the ragged edge to really know what you're made of.

If killing is necessary to do these things, to stand between the vulnerable and those who would do them harm, to protect your brother from the man who would seek to kill him and to preserve your own life when it is in danger, then so be it. I am willing to die, and to kill, that me and mine and the innocent in general will not. I am willing to abandon false relativism and make determinations of comparative worth in particular situations and accept the consequences.

That's why I joined the Marines and, in general, why I am not a pacifist.

Dunno if this helps at all. [huh]

 

[airfrogusmc]

Whether you're a soldier, airman, sailor or marine you are just instruments of politicians thats why its so important to pick them(politicians) very carefully. War isn't a video game and should only be entered into as a LAST RESORT and if theres a total breakdown of diplomacy. Good people die in war horrible deaths. Unfortunately allot of the civilians (politicians) that get us into these conflicts have never been in them themselves. Those that have been there are always reluctant to go again.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Sometimes, regretably, war is necessary whether those involved fully realize it or not.
I doubt that most of those that served during world war 2 realized the full impact of their service upon world history until some time after it was all over. This country was attacked, and so millions volunteered to fight off aggressor nations, perhaps without fully understanding that it was a struggle between good and evil, a war to really free oppressed people the world over.
Maybe we are witnessing the same situation today, another world war, only the boundaries are not as well defined as they are on a map.
I agree that war is definately a terrible situation to say the least, but we are forced to fight back to prevent further attacks against this country and our allies. Even though I grew up during the Vietnam war and was opposed to it, if I were younger I think I would join the service now, knowing what I know about the history of this world, and that I might be able to make a difference by serving in some capacity.

 

[Mr. Lucky]

Yes indeed.





And the enemy is saying, "There's nothing more noble for someone to do than serve one's religion. (In this case, an atrociously fundamentalist interpretation of Islam).

I've come to the conclusion that there's nothing more noble for someone to do than serve his/her partner, children (if any), parents, friends, neighbors, the sick, the elderly, the poor, and so on down the line. Placed against all those things, my country appears much further down on my list.

Once a person decides to enlist, however, it becomes his/her sacred responsibility to place Duty, Honor, Country at the top of his/her list. This is as it should be.


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Very eloquently stated. Thank you.

 

[airfrogusmc]

I've come to the conclusion that there's nothing more noble for someone to do than serve his/her partner, children (if any), parents, friends, neighbors, the sick, the elderly, the poor, and so on down the line. Placed against all those things, my country appears much further down on my list.



Actually they're kinda one in the same. You are serving your family, friends, neighbors, by serving your country. You are involved in something bigger than yourself. And when I say serving your country its not just the military. I put the police, firemen, teachers, peacecorps etc in with serving. Some are just not as suited to serve in the military as they might be in some of these other roles.

Most that have served also come to realize that it no longer becomes the God & country ideal that it was when you joined but the much smaller protecting your fellow marines. Always watching out for one another. Thats why guys that get wounded always to get back to their units as quickly as possible. Usually not because they love war or agree with what they are fighting for its your unit, your bros, your family in a way. Semper Fidelis....

 

[Section10]

I wish the US would rethink its foreign policy, but regardless I believe we will always have war and therefore a need for a strong military. I won't say war is necessary but given current conditions it will be inevitable.
People desire peace, but I think it's mostly because they do not wish to face the costs of war. All the destruction, heartbreak, suffering and sacrifice that is involved. There will be no peace until people see that war is morally reprehensible and with military technology increasing to where leaders can fight from air conditioned offices I doubt that insight will be forthcoming. At least the man in the field will come home with nightmares to haunt him and in a sense that is a good thing. It shows he is still a human with feelings and an understanding of horror. When wars are fought with no emotional repercussions then heaven help us.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Funny the way we were sold that the war in Iraq is the same as the war of terror. Our misguided foreign policy has created hundreds of thousands of new enemies.

As history shows that you do become vulnerable when your military becomes weak. So a strong military can be a tool for peace as long as the politicians use that tool responsibly.

 

[carebear]

I wish the US would rethink its foreign policy, but regardless I believe we will always have war and therefore a need for a strong military. I won't say war is necessary but given current conditions it will be inevitable.
People desire peace, but I think it's mostly because they do not wish to face the costs of war. All the destruction, heartbreak, suffering and sacrifice that is involved. There will be no peace until people see that war is morally reprehensible and with military technology increasing to where leaders can fight from air conditioned offices I doubt that insight will be forthcoming. At least the man in the field will come home with nightmares to haunt him and in a sense that is a good thing. It shows he is still a human with feelings and an understanding of horror. When wars are fought with no emotional repercussions then heaven help us.

First off, not all vets come home with "nightmares". War has its horrors but someone who is basically well-adjusted can deal with those. The "basket-case Nam vet" is a stereotype, not an all-encompassing reality.

As for war being "morally reprehensible", the consequences of not fighting evil are much much greater. Sometimes killing fewer now can prevent greater killing later, making war the moral option.

Contrast the losses due to the fighting in WWII in Europe with the losses in the death camps, in the Pacific with the Rape of Nanking and China as a whole or the POW death camps. When evil is not resisted with countering violence from within or without you end up with the losses in Russia under Stalin and under the Communist Party, the losses in Cambodia and China and Myanmar. The slaughters in the Sudan and Rwanda.

A good war, civil or otherwise, could have removed from power those who who would kill on a massive scale. Those who will never be convinced or removed from power by non-violent resistance.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

As history shows that you do become vulnerable when your military becomes weak. So a strong military can be a tool for peace as long as the politicians use that tool responsibly.

It couldn't be better said than that. :eusa_clap

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[SinatraStyle]

Having served in the US Marine Corps I can relate to, as well as agree and disagree with many of the statements that have been made here. It is wonderful to have the Lounge and all of its residents who can give their opinions and share their experiences without the discussion turning into a quarrel.

ArrowCollarMan, I think that the most important thing you can do is remain supportive of your family. There will be times that you may call into question the role that they have been given by our government, but regardless of your view of our policy please remain supportive of those who are called upon to follow it. This is the most important piece of advice that I can give.

Speaking from experience, it tears at your emotions to know that you are fighting for your country and know that you do not have support of the country you have sworn to protect. If you do not agree with the cause feel free to make it known. It is your right and your duty as a citizen. However, please also make it equally known that you support your family members and the other Americans that are serving. They are willing to be separated from their families and risk dying for their country. That means they risk dying for YOU and for ME. Years ago I made that decision and still stand by it. I don't want to die, but I would be willling to do so to protect my family, my country, and our freedom.

Semper Fi

 

[Marc Chevalier]

There will be times that you may call into question the role that they have been given by our government, but regardless of your view of our policy please remain supportive of those who are called upon to follow it. This is the most important piece of advice that I can give.

If you do not agree with the cause feel free to make it known. It is your right and your duty as a citizen. However, please also make it equally known that you support your family members and the other Americans that are serving.

---Beautifully said. :eusa_clap

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[Paisley]

Arrow, for a different perspective on the war from what you may be used to seeing, you might want to check out the Hoover Digest and a Iraq the Model. The Hoover Digest is published by a think tank at Stanford University; Iraq the Model is a blog written by three Iraqi brothers in Baghdad. I believe one is a doctor, another is a dentist, and the third is a student. And of course, there are your own relatives in the military.

By the way, some people feel that coming home from Vietnam was harder than coming home from WWII because the Vietnam vets had a lot less support from their countrymen. Please don't make that mistake with your family. You can never really take back anything you say.

My best friend and I are polar opposites on politics and the war. However, we remain friends because we seldom get into discussions about it. Our friendship is more important than getting our views across.

 

[ArrowCollarMan]

Shortly after I posted this I was thinking, "The Military is just a job just like firemen or police officers. A police officer may have to kill or be killed and a firefighter has to run into intense danger to rescue someone. All are considered honorable". I can understand why our nation needs a powerful military and why war may at time be justifiable. If it wern't for the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan I would not be here today. Its all a cycle, its all a part of the human condition. Man has fought man since the dawn of time, if I dissagree I dissagree, nothing will come of me wishing for something else.

There are also some things about people who have served that I can't understand. They all carry the same mentaility weather they have been in a war or not, I've never heard anyone say they ever regretted it either. Somehow, people in the military are all in the same boat. They don't deserve to be mistreated, they have all accomplished something most people could never dream. I can't understand it. Besides, even though I do disagree with the war its not the soldiers' fault they're just following orders. What kind of military would we have if they didn't follow orders? When they're called to fight they fight. Its a different world in a way.

War is hell and even if its justifiable I don't tbelieve its ever right (if that makes any sense). The truth is there is no "bad guy". To people we fight we are the bad guy. They believe what they're doing is right and we believe what we're doing is right. The truth seems to be who ever wins is the one who is right. If Nazi Germany won WWII we would be considered the "bad guys". Its so strange and so pitiful. There is good and evil but it gets mixed up so much.

As for my family, I will support them. Family is really the only permanent thing I will ever have throughout my life.

I don't know anything.

 

[Viola]

War is hell and even if its justifiable I don't tbelieve its ever right (if that makes any sense). The truth is there is no "bad guy". To people we fight we are the bad guy. They believe what they're doing is right and we believe what we're doing is right. The truth seems to be who ever wins is the one who is right. If Nazi Germany won WWII we would be considered the "bad guys". Its so strange and so pitiful. There is good and evil but it gets mixed up so much.

No offense to you, ArrowCollarMan, but I think this sort of moral relativism is a crock.

There are good guys and bad guys. Or, if you prefer, bad guys and worse guys. We don't want the worse guys to win. Sometimes it really is that simple. I can't see the whole "they're all the same" argument when it comes to example like WWII or the current war in Iraq.

No, they're not. They're not acting the same. Simply in terms of types of attacks and acceptable targets, the are not the same, and one guy is a worse guy.

Now, as far as whether we are handling things logically, well, that's a whole other animal.

Just me talking,
Viola

 

[ArrowCollarMan]

Yeah, I suppose. I wasn't trying to argue that nazi germany or any of the axis powers were all fine and dandy, but at the time it was pretty realitive. People who fougth for Nazi Germany then thought they were doing a great thing and if they had won...who knows? Thats all I'm sayng. But different things apply at different times. War just upsets me is all, but its happening weather I like it or not.