White RAF Roll Neck Sweaters

[Smithy]

The price alone beggars belief!

 

[Edward]

My goodness - one of my first post reappear...and I still haven't found the sweater.:eusa_doh:

It may be true that in cyber space, no one can hear you scream...... but anything you type will come back to haunt you for years to come.

The first thing that sprang to mind for me was the following:

This is available from the London, England based Ace Cafe shop - online at www.ace-cafe-london.com - deep link https://www.soulutions.de/acl/php/produkte.php5?unterkategorie=59

The blurb on the site reads:

"The woollen submariner jumper with its roll neck, deep welts and cuff was made to a wartime specification and issued to British servicemen exposed to cold or damp conditions. Submariners have not been available for many years, but having traced the manufacturer, they`re back! Warm, rugged and stylish as ever, they became popular with Ton-up boy`s and Rockers.
Made in England"

They're GBP £64.95 - roughly twice the price of the WPG option. That said, I don't know how they compare in quality, plus it's also worth bearing in mind that the WPG at £35 is probably going to cost nearer £60 anyhow by the time you pay for shipping and potentially import tax and VAT.

I bought one of these some years ago - I think around 2002 - as a birthday present for my dad (the old boy had rediscovered motorbikes into his fifties, and I figured it'd help keep 'im warm on the back of a bike...). Back then I'm certain they were much chepaer, around GBP£40.00; they were also available in both navy and ecru. I guess they have rationalised their range and cut it down to one colour (they also now have their own line of leather jackets where previously they were an outlet for Lewis Leathers). The quality is beautiful, and it has washed and worn well. That's the big difference I find with wool, really - the quality garments just last much better (same for most things, though with wool the law of diminishing returns doesn't seem to kick in so early or so hard). I really fancy one of these myself, but it's a heck of a lot more than I've ever spent on a sweater before..... £45, no problem, but add an extra £20 and I start to get antsy. If they've kept the quality up, though, they are a beautiful sweater. Not quite the same deal as the RAF option pictured earlier in the thread if that's what you want, but if you're not trying to replicate a period uniform, one of these would look equally good under an Irvin, IMO.

 

[Smithy]

The one in Zemke's post does not seem to be an entirely correct RN sweater (collar looks different to my eyes) although I am sure that Alan will know for sure.

The price though is what made my eyes water, that's over twice the price of an Eastman offering.

At the end of the day and as we have said before, RAF aircrew wore all sorts of jumpers under tunics and Irvins for warmth. So I think spending this much on a "submarine sweater" is quite frankly not exactly money well spent. That's not to say that it doesn't look like a nice jumper, but I suspect that a few extra dollars have been plonked on the pricing by saying that it's an "RAF sweater".

 

[Alan Eardley]

The one in Zemke's post does not seem to be an entirely correct RN sweater (collar looks different to my eyes) although I am sure that Alan will know for sure.

The price though is what made my eyes water, that's over twice the price of an Eastman offering.

At the end of the day and as we have said before, RAF aircrew wore all sorts of jumpers under tunics and Irvins for warmth. So I think spending this much on a "submarine sweater" is quite frankly not exactly money well spent. That's not to say that it doesn't look like a nice jumper, but I suspect that a few extra dollars have been plonked on the pricing by saying that it's an "RAF sweater".

Smithy,

Thanks for the invitation to comment, but I'm not sure that loungers appreciate it if one points out that the items in posted in their links do not live up to their advertisers' claims. Let's just say that the RN 'Jersey White' has construction features that are very different, in the waist and cuff ribbing, shoulder seams (taped in some early models) and neck, from a typical 'fisherman's jersey'. Most of those sold on websites are typical fisherman's jerseys. They may be nice, they may be comfortable, they may be warm, but they are not like the RAF or RN or submariners garments. So why aren't they advertised honestly as 'nice, comfortable, warm jerseys, as worn by fishermen'? Isn't this the same company that sells the spurious 'gurkha shorts'?

I believe the way the price of an item is, as I have stated before, up to the individual. If someone wants to spend a lot of money, that's their business, provided they don't believe they are buying a close replica when they are not. Presumably the high price of these items reflects the need to employ expensive copywriters to make the misleading claims...

Alan

 

[Edward]

Alan, I think you're onto something there. lol

Actually, i do really fancy the look of the submariner jumper irrespective of whether it is accurate or not, but I'm far too cheap not to feel uncomfortable at the price of it. Guess I'll have another look at Dad's and see how well it's doing all these years on. I have a couple of wool sweaters that I've been wearing for over ten years now that back in the 90s were £30 or so.... maybe on that front..... I don't mind paying (within reason) for quality, but I'd hate to shell out for no more than - as you put it - expensive copy-writing!

 

[Zemke Fan]

I am not saying run out and buy it...

Just putting it out there as a source... BTW, the version on History Preservation's Web site (Eastman's N. American distributor) is $167.50 (with s/h)....

 

[Alan Eardley]

Granted, but I'd still rather pay 10 - 20 GBP for an original.

Alan

 

[Story]

I just got mine back, friend had to stitch up a nick in the weaving - I got it FROM WHAT PRICE GLORY back when they had originals for $40 or so.
The only problem is that I now have an overwhelming desire to whistle the Old Spice commercial tune.

 

[Zemke Fan]

OK!

Granted, but I'd still rather pay 10 - 20 GBP for an original.

Alan

When you go, get me one in a 46L ! Be glad to even pay you a little profit!

 

[Alan Eardley]

When you go, get me one in a 46L ! Be glad to even pay you a little profit!

I have never seen an original this large. That's not to say they don't exist, but they don't seem to make ito onto the surplus stalls. In the RN the jersey is worn by ratings, who tend to be in the late teen - early twenty age range and in submarines, well, I guess the little guys fit in best. Most of those I see are RN Size 1 or 2 - 38" or 40". I'll keep a look out for you, though.

Alan

 

[soulquentin]

I have never seen an original this large. That's not to say they don't exist, but they don't seem to make ito onto the surplus stalls. In the RN the jersey is worn by ratings, who tend to be in the late teen - early twenty age range and in submarines, well, I guess the little guys fit in best. Most of those I see are RN Size 1 or 2 - 38" or 40". I'll keep a look out for you, though.

Alan

Would that be the same surplus store carrying the duffles? If so, I'd be in for the duffle coat and the sweater, both size 1 I guess...
cheers, soulquentin

 

[Alan Eardley]

Soulquentin,

If only life were that convenient! Alas, no. One is an hours train ride away, the other an hour's bus ride - not in the same direction. But convenience (and knowing that shops had things in stock) would reduce the excitement of hunting surplus clothing to that of ordering over the Web.

For jerseys, try Springfields at Burton on Trent and Endicott's in Exeter. Both have web sites. It's worth giving them a ring even if they don't show an item on their website, as with small quantity items (duffles and jerseys fit into this) often don't get put on the site.

We have commented in the forum that it is difficult to understand the process by which government surplus items make it onto racks in shops. I have studied this for years, and I still don't understand it. You can visit a shop or market stall regularly for years looking for a particular item (e.g. a RN jersey), Nothing...and then suddenly four or five turn up on the rack. Where do they come from? The owner won't tell you...

Alan

Would that be the same surplus store carrying the duffles? If so, I'd be in for the duffle coat and the sweater, both size 1 I guess...
cheers, soulquentin

 

[Smithy]

Where do they come from? The owner won't tell you...

All sounds very "Trotters Independent Traders"!

 

[Edward]

I've heard of guys leaving the forces "forgetting" to return items of issued uniforms they're supposed to, and very similar items turning up on eBay some months later being sold by people who just happen to know them...

 

[SamMarlowPI]

So out of every store/vendor/ net site etc. that sells these sweaters, which sells the closest to original and best quality for a reproduction? RAF and/or RN...cheers

 

[Smithy]

The Eastman looks pretty much bang on (I don't have one though), although unfortunately you Americans have to pay an horrendous amount more for Eastman products through the US distributor. The WPG one looks good as well but I know two who have them for reenacting and they say although it's good, it is also one of the scratchiest and itchiest jumpers they've had.

If you know someone who knits, show them some pictures and they should be able to do a very close copy for you as it's a very simple job for a proficient knitter. Failing that (and as I have said before here), wear any old natural roll-neck white or natural wool jumper and no one can say that's not what was worn by RAF aircrews during the war. Truth be told RAF pilots worn all sorts of jumpers to keep warm and the RN version was just one of them.

 

[Spitfire]

I have read several stories of BoB pilots taking of in pyjamas underneath their Irvins and flightsuits. Imagine if that ever had been shown in movies like Battle of Britain.
Then we would all be discussing pyjamapatterns and colours today lol

 

[blacklagoon]

George W Steers submarine polo sweater

here are a couple of links to a site which sell the famous George W Steers submarine polo sweater.

http://www.saltwaterclassics.com/index.php?cPath=1_49

http://www.saltwaterclassics.com/pr...d=105&osCsid=a16a87e750a5b71030f1663d73d8e755

This particular model is sold and advertised at a great many british nautical places.it is the most authentic,judging by what they all say.

 

[Smithy]

You're right Spitty, many pilots on early morning ops kept their pyjamas on and just piled things on top. I think I may have mentioned this here before but the strangest I know of was Tim Vigors who wore his pyjamas and a dressing gown on a night time interception!

 

[Alan Eardley]

It depends what you mean by 'close to the original'. As has been pointed out here many times, although the AM had two issue RAF woollen pullover-type garments in WW2, (the one everyone wants being the 'Frock, White', good reproductions of this are very scarce. Air Diggers used to do one (looked reasonably close in photos) but I don't know if they still offer it. As will no doubt be pointed out RAF flying crew (particularly in the 1939-41 period) were allowed to wear a wide range of knitted garments.

The RN 'Jersey, White' is different. WPG does one (the originals are itchy, so a repro that isn't wouldn't be 'close') and Eastman's is very close. So close, in fact, that some people say (the things people say...) that it is an issue RN jersey with a rather unconvincing AM label on it - they point out that the word 'Sweater', for instance, would not be used by the AM in WW2. They are (IMO) very expensive.

The things you are looking for in a close copy are:
The wool should be heavy and have a strong smell and feel of lanolin oil.
The neck should have an awkward construction, so that the circular collar sits on a horizontal seam between the shoulders. This makes it sit funny. If it looks right, it's not close. The collar isn't as full and doesn't 'roll' as nicely as commercial sweaters.
The shoulder seams should be bulky and be 'saddle stitched', with tape reinforcements (early ones across both sides, later just the under seam). The bulk of the seam should be outside the garment. The inside is smoother - they were meant to be worn, not looked at.
There should be square canvas reinforcement patches inside the shoulders.
The welt (cuff and waist) should be about 5 inches wide.

I hope this helps.

Alan