fur vs wool felt

mayserwegener said:

I forgot that I shouldn't post in these threads.

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Yeah, what do you know anyway

Doc;
You just have to experience it to understand.
This should be to your liking.
https://www.everythingaustralian.com.au/shopexd.asp?id=38
Steve;
Please post any thought

ingineer said:

Doc;
You just have to experience it to understand.
This should be to your liking.
https://www.everythingaustralian.com.au/shopexd.asp?id=38

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Actually what I REALLY want is something like a Banjo Paterson with vent holes.

That's my Holy Grail.

I had a wool hat once and is shrunk when I wore it in the rain, I always thought that all wool hats would do that, the crown got significantly smaller after wearing in the rain just one time, it was much shorter and the hat itself fit more tightly, is there a way to prevent a wool hat from shrinking like this?

Doc Glockster said:

So if I'm reading this correctly a properly made fur hat will continue over time to get denser and potentially firmer?

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Denser, yes. Firmer, that is a factor of the shellac added if I'm reading your gist. Dead felt is denser but supple.
I have an Akubra Dallas, just like a Snowy River but with a telescope crease that I changed to a teardrop.
It's brim is as rigid as any Stetson 6X, 10X or Resistol western (Stagecoach, 4X) that I own.
I also have an Akubra Boss of the Plains but its brim is more like Jimmy Stewart's hat that he wore in all of his westerns

Doc Glockster said:

What about for buffalo?

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Closer to wool than to rabbit, IMHO

Doc;
http://www.colorsnaps.com/bronze-30-off#.VV-P5ka0fcs
that's just a quick check for a grommet
Just do it while the Aussy dollar is so low

Much of this is biased towards the felting ability of beaver or other similar aquatic animal types. What if the felting ability of rabbit or hare is made similar by pickling methods? It is a fact that hare was main fur content of the finest Velours and other long hair finishes. They were also of the highest durability.

The Europeans made high quality wool and wool blend soft and stiff felt hats. Not saying it's superior but you can't compare them to what you see today. The wool stiff felt I posted is at least 100 years old and has held up fine. The density and finish of the felt is fantastic.

gtdean48 said:

Closer to wool than to rabbit, IMHO

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I agree, but worse than wool in some respects. I've got a 3XXX wool Stetson Hutchins that's seen more abuse than one of Indiana Jones's hats, yet even though the felt is rougher than a new hat it's still not as rough as my buffalo felt Stetson Austral got after just a few wearings.

I'm just not a fan of buffalo now.

navarre said:

Yeah, what do you know anyway

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I did it again. There is defiantly a good amount of bias. I am fairly certain the legend of beaver felt hats is mostly based in felting ability. Once that is equalized it is not always the preferred fur type.

Also I am being very general. If you look at old felt recipes you usually see blends that include different fur types plus -> season animal trapped, fur location on the animal, inner or guard hair, raw or processed, improved pickling methods, etc.

All joking aside Steve. While I don't have any of the quality of wools that you speak of, I will back you up on the fact that non beaver hats can and are exceptional. The time frame of German and Austrian velours that you note are indeed some of the finest felt I have experienced. Far exceeding beaver hats.

I would say that if the question is pertaining to modern hats though, beaver will win out in the density and quality of felting available. And I would stand behind it holding the most longevity.

gtdean48 said:

Closer to wool than to rabbit, IMHO

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+1

Steve, I would be curious to know what the most recent wool felt you have that displays quality in its felting?

I am sure we all agree that the quality of modern felts can't come close to rivaling vintage, but I would be interested to see if we could work out when wool became the stock/low quality that we see in todays hats.

I don't doubt that it has always been the less expensive hat, I just wonder if the decline in felting practices runs equally across the board?

navarre said:

All joking aside Steve. While I don't have any of the quality of wools that you speak of, I will back you up on the fact that non beaver hats can and are exceptional. The time frame of German and Austrian velours that you note are indeed some of the finest felt I have experienced. Far exceeding beaver hats.

I would say that if the question is pertaining to modern hats though, beaver will win out in the density and quality of felting available. And I would stand behind it holding the most longevity.

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I believe the pickling (carroting) could be a factor with modern hare and rabbit felt since they don't have the felting ability of beaver. I know from German documentation from the late 19th Century that they were trying to replace mercury nitrate (due to health reasons) but could never find a solution that produced similar results especially with hare (which is very difficult to felt). They mention that improved mercury nitrate based pickling methods of the time period allowed them to achieve beaver like durability. Are the current methods equal to nitrate of mercury based processes that were banned in the late 30s and early 1940s (by the way I am pretty sure some Italian fur processors were still using nitrate of mercury into 1970s)? Also fur quality, aging prior to felting and other processing could be a factors.

I have some old German and Austrian wool soft felts. They appear to have held their form but I don't really like how they feel in hand (almost rubber like). They even produced wool Velours and it's highly possible I have some but I don't know it. Also some hats I think are 100% fur felt but could be wool / fur blends. I think wool worked good for stiff felts like the Negretti I posted earlier in this thread. The felt on this hat is extremely light in weight (the hat weighs about 110 grams) plus dense with a fantastic smooth finish. The only downside I see is that it's a lint collector. I have a lot of information on wool processing for hats (wool hats were dominate in Pre WWII Europe) but haven't looked at it very closely.

The bottom line is we are pretty much working in the dark now when it comes to past methods. As far as I know there aren't any companies here in America that processes fur for hats. When I visited Tonak I saw them doing it but they didn't tell me how the skins were processed. I saw the guard hair being mechanically removed and the pelts being dipped in different solutions (see below) and dried. Does Fepsa process their own fur or use a third party?

Here is the current pickling / carroting process for fur felt.

"As described, the standard carroting reagents are concentrated sulphuric and nitric acids, chloric acid, used either singly or in combination, to which may be added hydrogen peroxide and potassium permanganate as oxidizing agents. -

Usually the carroting is done prior to separation of the fur from the skin by brushing a suitable carroting solution on the fur. After drying the rabbit pelts are then fed through a cutting machine, and the fur is sheared from the skin. Then the carroted fur is processes into felt by felting.

The described procedure typically requires hand operation and is a slow procedure. Moreover, carrot solutions are corrosive and irritate skin and lung. For a long time many attempts have been made to do away with the complicated, time consuming and expensive procedure of treating the hairs by brushing the solution on the fur, and to eliminate the manipulations required for this purpose by replacing said process by a pot-carroting process.

This latter process consists in cutting off the fur in the uncarroted state from the pelt, impregnating it by immersing the fur fibres in a loose condition into a carroting solution, then removing the excess moisture and drying the fur. Similarly as in the standard carroting prior to separation of the fur from the skin, the handling of aggressive carroting solutions during the pot-carroting and the subsequent fur drying create technical and environmental problems. Even more serious, however, is the fact that the fur fibres thus treated do not exhibit satisfactory felting properties and are not very suitable for the manufacture of hats. For this reason, such cut carroted fur fibres can generally be used only in mixture with a large percentage of fur fibres which have been carroted before shearing while still on the skin. "

navarre said:

Steve, I would be curious to know what the most recent wool felt you have that displays quality in its felting?

I am sure we all agree that the quality of modern felts can't come close to rivaling vintage, but I would be interested to see if we could work out when wool became the stock/low quality that we see in todays hats.

I don't doubt that it has always been the less expensive hat, I just wonder if the decline in felting practices runs equally across the board?

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Actually wool hats were not always at the lowest price point. For example in this old Austrian catalog some of the Loden hats are at the highest price point (you also see Biber (Beaver) - Loden mixes).

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/134-alois-pichler-hut-niederlage-wien/

There are still fairly nice modern Trachten wool or wool / fur blends hats. Here is a late 50s (maybe later) Loden / Loden / Fur Trachten hut.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/57-f-g-m-hutfabrik/#entry308

Here is a pre WWII B&B wool hat.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/7-bruder-bohm-hutfabrik/page-2#entry798

I believe Daniele has some later Italian and French wool / wool fur blend examples (in Italy Monza was the center for wool hats) so maybe he will post some photos.

In looking through some hat just now, I did discover on heathered felt that I would guess is a wool rabbit blend form the 50's. It isn't a magnificent specimen, but it does not show signs of shrinkage or age much as a more modern straight wool might. So..for whatever thats worth?

Thanks for the links Steve. Very interesting. The Loden Trachten is an interesting hat with its felt "ribbon" and edge binding.

navarre said:

In looking through some hat just now, I did discover on heathered felt that I would guess is a wool rabbit blend form the 50's. It isn't a magnificent specimen, but it does not show signs of shrinkage or age much as a more modern straight wool might. So..for whatever thats worth?

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I would also take a look at the B&B pre WWII wool. This hat has held it's form / size. I don't really like how it feels in hand but it's nothing like you see today. You can see the lint collection and also "Decateered" on the sweatband.

Here is early 1900s German soft felt.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/60-c-w-n-hutfabriken/#entry325

That's a good looking hat and if I were to have just seen the photo, I would not have guessed it was wool.

Sadly I think we have strayed from Doc's question back to our age old discussion of modern vs vintage quality.

So to re-address the original thread question " is an Akubra fur really better than a Stetson wool?" I would say yes, it is worth the extra money. I have re-blocked Akubras for people that beat the hell out of them and they come back to life. The modern Stetson wool that has been ridden hard is more akin to a sweater that went through the dryer. It is pretty much done for. This is just my opinion based on personal experience in servicing hats. Others here may have had different outcomes.

Yes very true!

Just as footnote:

Fepsa felt charts recommend LLX quality (100% Hare fur but not mention in the chart) for Velour, Satin, and Melusine finishes.

https://www.fepsa.pt/technical-info/finishes

LLX/130 from their store which states 100% Hare.

https://www.fepsa.pt/product/llx130-9