Are notch lapel dinner jackets "correct"?

[avedwards]

I know this is a topic which has been discussed a lot on the formalwear primer thread, but I thought it deserves a thread of its own. I will be summarising the evidence posted on other threads over the next few days.

I posted this as a poll so that we can get an overview of how many people think that notch lapel dinner jackets are correct and how many think they are wrong. By correct I do not mean aesthetically pleasing but whether they are correct when worn to black tie functions.

I just ask everyone to be polite here. There is going to be disagreement but we are only talking clothes so hopefully there is no need for arguing.

 

[boushi_mania]

I would prefer more choices; "acceptable but inelegant" is my attitude.

 

[Edward]

I voted "perfectly acceptable". To qualify, while they are not my preference by a long shot, they've certainly been around for a long time and are 'correct' in that sense. In terms of relative formality, I'd put them on a par with the shawl collar (though, of course, I would myself by far prefer the former). Where, I think, much of the sense of them being 'unacceptable' comes from is the fact that typically they are found on jackets with all the 'wrong' features - pocket flaps, two or more buttons, vents, etc etc... In other words, they tend to crop up on jackets that have been run up using the standard lounge suit jacket pattern as opposed to 'proper' DJs. My gut feeling is that this is much of the reason why they have negative connotations, more so than simply being another alternative lapel finish for the traditional dj.

 

[avedwards]

I would prefer more choices; "acceptable but inelegant" is my attitude.

Agree with you to some extent, though I personally would consider them elegant but not as elegant as peaked or shawl lapel jackets. However, I wanted to keep things simple which is why I mentioned that by "correct" I mean irrelevant of aesthetic issues.

 

[Cody Pendant]

Black or White choices

I'm going to have to vote on the "Faux Pas" side of the fence as their are only two choices.
In reality they have been around forever.
Edward had it right, it is usually just one step away from a regular black suit. Another way of looking at it is that the notch has been called "beginner-ware", something the young man might wear to prom dance here in the U.S.A.
As one matures one may have, more opportunities to wear semi-formal wear, and have gained some culture and a fatter wallet to move up and have interest in more "elegant" options.
However having said that, I applaud anyone who dons the duds at all. :eusa_clap

 

[Charlie Huang]

I would prefer more choices; "acceptable but inelegant" is my attitude.

+1

Personally, after thinking about it hard, they're here to stay regardless what sartorialists say so there's no flogging the horse that's bolted. However, I do not think they look elegant on DJs (given the lapel shape is more noticable with the silk facings) and also the formality argument sways me to avoid notches on DJs at all costs.

But one must remember that a DJ is, to a certain extent, an informal evening dress that was once meant to be only worn at stag dos and parties not in the presence of women (otherwise white tie would have been worn and anyone who wears notches on a tailcoat has got no clue that it is wrong, wrong, wrong) so therefore there is historical precedence here.

However, if one is getting a DJ made, I would advise, always, that they get peaks or shawl lapels in lieu of the pedestrian notched/step lapel.

 

[AntonAAK]

I agree with the majority of the above. Perfectly 'correct' according to historical precedent but very much not to my taste.

It seems like an excuse to make black tie look more like a lounge suit and less formal and 'dressed up'. But when I put on black tie I want to look dressed up.

 

[Matt Deckard]

They've been around since the beginning. I just don't understand them being talked about as a sartorial faux pas now when they never were before.

 

[Feraud]

Are notch lapel dinner jackets "correct"?

I thought this was resolved the last time around.

Wasn't the consensus based on historical information that notch lapels are historically correct but were worn by a minority of men?

The aesthetic judgement is our issue. I don't recall (I could be wrong here) seeing much info. presented how men of the time regarded the notch lapel dinner jacket.

 

[Edward]

But one must remember that a DJ is, to a certain extent, an informal evening dress that was once meant to be only worn at stag dos and parties not in the presence of women (otherwise white tie would have been worn and anyone who wears notches on a tailcoat has got no clue that it is wrong, wrong, wrong) so therefore there is historical precedence here.

I've never seen a vintage example of a tailcoat with notch lapels; indeed, I believe that to be a hallmark of the more recent "Tuxedo Tailcoat" species, also noted for the lining going only to the waist, typically worn with a black bow (in many respects, from what I have seen of this, it is essentially a novelty addition to a black tie outfit, rather than tails proper. Clearly the old idea of 'grey tie' has been lost....).

Interestingly, as I learned recently, notch lapels were, while not in the majority, quite common on morning coats. I just recently purchased a 193s example with notches - not my personal preference, but a beautiful coat nonetheless.

However, if one is getting a DJ made, I would advise, always, that they get peaks or shawl lapels in lieu of the pedestrian notched/step lapel.

Of course.

It seems like an excuse to make black tie look more like a lounge suit and less formal and 'dressed up'. But when I put on black tie I want to look dressed up.

Interesting.... I think this is cetainly the psychology behind the modern, 'Hollywoodised', trend towards wearing a black four in hand with a dj... As to the jackets themselves growing to resemble suits, this is simply a matter of the manufacturers cutting corners by using their regular lounge suit jacket pattern to produce DJs. Without going vintage or used, though, it is still reasonably easy to find a shawl collared example which, while less formal than peaks, is, imho, preferable to the notch. I also prefer my black tie wear to be markedly different than the run of the mill lounge suit. If I wanted to wear a black lounge suit, I would.

What is becoming, it seems, impossible to find is a simple, sb black blazer with peak lapels, that might be worn as a stroller. I'm quite happy to switch the buttons from brass etc if needsbe... I'm even happy to compromise and have pocket flaps (my understanding is that this isn't the sin with daywear that it is for black tie), but with the notch lapel and plain black buttons it is very much in danger of looking, to my eye, like an orphan black suit jacket....
Workig on that one still, I may have to go bespoke.

 

[Charlie Huang]

I've never seen a vintage example of a tailcoat with notch lapels; indeed, I believe that to be a hallmark of the more recent "Tuxedo Tailcoat" species, also noted for the lining going only to the waist, typically worn with a black bow (in many respects, from what I have seen of this, it is essentially a novelty addition to a black tie outfit, rather than tails proper. Clearly the old idea of 'grey tie' has been lost....).

Interestingly, as I learned recently, notch lapels were, while not in the majority, quite common on morning coats. I just recently purchased a 193s example with notches - not my personal preference, but a beautiful coat nonetheless.

I have seen notched tailcoats. On Strictly Come Dancing, everyone including the professional dancers themselves (save Anton Du Beke who seems to have bespoken his) had notched lapels. The worrying thing is that these tailcoats were made by an ex-Savile Row tailor for the show which one would have thought that they should have known better...

Notched morning coats are indeed common in the past because they were considered informal comapred to the frock coat. They had two, three, sometimes four buttons during the transition from frock to cutaway. Now that the frock coat is considered 'dead' by many, the morning coat is thus the most formal daytime dress for a majority of people so it ought to take peaks all the time unless one wears morning dress on a daily basis in which they would require some informal versions with notches and more than one button.

 

[David V]

There is a difference between something being acceptable and correct.

 

[avedwards]

One thing I would like to add is that I think the whole idea of notched lapels being too much like a business suit is ridiculous IMO. There are peaked lapel business suits so the same could be said for the peaked lapel dinner jacket. There also DB business suits yet I don't see anyone criticising the DB dinner jackets.

I know that notched lapels are more common on business suits, but peaked lapels are still around and were quite common in the era we are all interested in.

Therefore, if one is to criticise the notched lapel dinner jacket it can only be on aesthetic reasons and not for resembling a business suit.

 

[avedwards]

I also fail to see what's so inelegant about them. IMO Sean Connery looks very elegant in the picture Matt Deckard posted. I'm personally quite fond of notched lapel dinner jackets with waistcoats as it combines both the more casual element of black tie with the more formal element.

Elegance is very subjective, but I think that a well cut notched lapel dinner jacket looks just as good as any other dinner jacket. It's when we get multiple buttons and a centre vent that things get inelegant.

 

[Lone_Ranger]

They've been around since the beginning. I just don't understand them being talked about as a sartorial faux pas now when they never were before.

“I’d say it was a 30-year-old Fine indifferently blended, sir.” He sniffs the decanter, and then adds, “With an overdose of Bons Bois.”

Now. Back to your regularly scheduled program.

I know the shawl collar is supposed to be the correct choice. However, it always felt a little to Hugh Heffner, for me. 007 is probably wearing regular lace up shoes, with that notch collar, too.

Sometimes when you are a globetrotting secret agent, you have to travel light. You can't bring your entire wardrobe with you, like you are on safari. You have to make do, with clothes that serve double-duty, when you are a double-oh.

 

[Edward]

I have seen notched tailcoats. On Strictly Come Dancing, everyone including the professional dancers themselves (save Anton Du Beke who seems to have bespoken his) had notched lapels. The worrying thing is that these tailcoats were made by an ex-Savile Row tailor for the show which one would have thought that they should have known better...

Jinkies, yes.... i have no time for du Beke and his apparent racism, or that ghastly show, but yes, you'd thhink they'd have gone with a more classic look. I suppose the notches work out cheaper on what is, ultimately, "only" a costume (they're unlikely, of course, to be cut as 'real' tailcoats, and likely some sort of synthetic material to be light and flexible under those conditions...)... no doubt the Beeb has a tight enough budget for costume o a shhow like this, given that (one presumes) the celebrity appearance fees are a significant outlay....

Notched morning coats are indeed common in the past because they were considered informal comapred to the frock coat. They had two, three, sometimes four buttons during the transition from frock to cutaway. Now that the frock coat is considered 'dead' by many, the morning coat is thus the most formal daytime dress for a majority of people so it ought to take peaks all the time unless one wears morning dress on a daily basis in which they would require some informal versions with notches and more than one button.

Fair point, yes. I would dearly love to wear morning dress to the next graduation, but it might be perceived as a bit ostentatious, even there. I intend by next Winter graduation to be in full stroller, though.


Here's a question you might well know the answer to..... re shirts. It seems to me that daywear follows the same rule as per evening, i.e. if the shirt has a wing collar and is intended to be worn with the morning coat, the cuffs should be a single layer; if a full, turnover collar, they should be doubled. (It seems that a turndown collar is acceptable with morning coat, whereas it would traditionally be considered a bit of a faux pas with tails...). does that carry across all collars? I'm looking towards a club collar shirt for formal daywear. The Saville Row Shirt company have some very nice examples on their site, currently reduced in price too, but they have single layers cuffs only. (Designed in the popular 'covertible' style, to be worn either as barrel, button cuffs, or with cufflinks.... naturally the buttons would be coming straight off as soon as I opened the packaging!). I'm curious as to how big of a faux pas that slightly more formal cuff style would be with the rounded collar..... I'm thinking no biggy, myself, but curious as to other opinions. Perhaps I should also add that, gauche as it may be, I draw the line at fiddling with separate collars, an attached being so considerably more convenient to launder.... I'll probably weaken and pick up a couple of those shirts by the time anyone reads this, so. lol

 

[avedwards]

Sometimes when you are a globetrotting secret agent, you have to travel light. You can't bring your entire wardrobe with you, like you are on safari. You have to make do, with clothes that serve double-duty, when you are a double-oh.

However, Bond is in London in Goldfinger where this picture comes from. Therefore he would have his whole wardrobe available. That would lead me to assume that his dinner jacket is a personal choice, rather than a convenience choice.

 

[Feraud]

I know the shawl collar is supposed to be the correct choice. However, it always felt a little to Hugh Heffner, for me.

I have an NRA tagged shawl collar dinner outfit.
The style was around way before Hugh Hefner did his thing.

 

[dnjan]

I would prefer more choices; "acceptable but inelegant" is my attitude.

For myself, I wouldn't wear a notched collar with a waistcoat - just with a cumberbund.

 

[Edward]

I have an NRA tagged shawl collar dinner outfit.
The style was around way before Hugh Hefner did his thing.

Absolutely. I've ot managed to wear it yet (I think I will need a teensy alteration in the waist...), but last year(!) I picked up a shhawl collar dj and trews which date, if memory serves, to the thirties. In any case, why give up perfectly good clothing styles because that ghastly Hefner man ears 'em? (It's not like he can carry them off as well as we here assembled.... lol ).