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Ebay Hats: Victories, Defeats, Gripes & Items of Interest

Blare

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,670
::nod:: @BobHufford

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Just Daniel

One Too Many
Messages
1,395
Well in case anyone missed a semi-annual gripe, our favorite seller sawinokur (sawinokur8083) is up to the same tricks. It seemed that for a little while they changed their text to be less specific about how hats came from "dad's collection" when the hats were actually just relistings after purchases on other sites such as Goodwill. Ok, maybe it's a deadhorse for quite a few of us, but every now and again someone new comes along who is unfamiliar with all the fun :)



"One of the rarest of all Stetsons! Along with an extremely rare Stetson “Privateer” hat box that’s in new condition! This is one set that NO one will have! When it was pulled out of dads hat collection we just couldn’t believe it was there! This is an extremely rare and very special set!

Dad decided to shape it into this shape because we had just watch a few of the old Clint Eastwood cowboy movies and it inspired dad to give it this shape. With some convincing dad would reshape it. If you look through dads listings you can see that cowboy fedora shape, John Wayne cowboy fedora in “3 Godfathers”. But you will need to write to dad and ask him to reshape it after the purchase."

....and here are the links to the original sale on Goodwill and the listing in question:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/325330466431

https://shopgoodwill.com/item/149448942

Why keep doing it?


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Messages
16,653
Location
Central California
Well in case anyone missed a semi-annual gripe, our favorite seller sawinokur (sawinokur8083) is up to the same tricks. It seemed that for a little while they changed their text to be less specific about how hats came from "dad's collection" when the hats were actually just relistings after purchases on other sites such as Goodwill. Ok, maybe it's a deadhorse for quite a few of us, but every now and again someone new comes along who is unfamiliar with all the fun :)



"One of the rarest of all Stetsons! Along with an extremely rare Stetson “Privateer” hat box that’s in new condition! This is one set that NO one will have! When it was pulled out of dads hat collection we just couldn’t believe it was there! This is an extremely rare and very special set!

Dad decided to shape it into this shape because we had just watch a few of the old Clint Eastwood cowboy movies and it inspired dad to give it this shape. With some convincing dad would reshape it. If you look through dads listings you can see that cowboy fedora shape, John Wayne cowboy fedora in “3 Godfathers”. But you will need to write to dad and ask him to reshape it after the purchase."

....and here are the links to the original sale on Goodwill and the listing in question:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/325330466431

https://shopgoodwill.com/item/149448942

Why keep doing it?


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I saw it too, Daniel. To live a life without honor must surely be it’s own punishment?
 
Messages
16,653
Location
Central California
You would be surprised........not to us of course......but to that person who is buying just one vintage hat to wear around/hang on the wall............the BS can lock a sale.:confused:


I don’t doubt you, but I guess I just like to think that he’s not profiting from his lies. Strange that eBay doesn’t have a false provenance option when reporting sellers.
 

M Hatman

My Mail is Forwarded Here
I don’t doubt you, but I guess I just like to think that he’s not profiting from his lies. Strange that eBay doesn’t have a false provenance option when reporting sellers.
Agreed......I don't understand at all how he gets away with it. Quite frankly...he is committing a fraud by legal definition..........I guess Ebay does not care as long as the dollars are rolling in.:mad:

Perhaps you should add stories to your listings........trace the hats back to the "Wild Bunch" or Bonnie and Clyde at the least.....see if you can talk your great, great grandfather into creasing them for you!!!:rolleyes:
;):)
 

Blare

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,670
Isn’t it really buyer beware, caveat emptor & all that?
True…. But at the same time fraud is still fraud.

Really depends on what is being embellished and to what degree.

Claims of false advertising generally come down to “would any normal person believe this to be true.. or is it just hyperbole“ Can really be both a high and low bar depending on legal counsel :D

You point though, John, should be well taken. Buyer beware.
 
Messages
16,217
True…. But at the same time fraud is still fraud.

Really depends on what is being embellished and to what degree.

Claims of false advertising generally come down to “would any normal person believe this to be true.. or is it just hyperbole“ Can really be both a high and low bar depending on legal counsel :D

You point though, John, should be well taken. Buyer beware.
I’ll give a real life example. A different seller once had a hat listed for auction I was interested in. He had reason to believe thru family the hat was purchased during the yrs 1948 -1949, but it clearly had an OPS tag. I didn’t care that his timeline was off. But in answering my questions about the hat the seller told me that he had been contacted by a “Fedora Lounge expert” to tell him that his hat couldn’t be a 1948-1949 because the OPS tag wasn’t used until 1951. If you’re a potential buyer interested in the hat you would probably know that. Why would this “expert” take it upon himself to go after the seller for his honest mistake other than the experts own ego? No harm, no foul.
 

M Hatman

My Mail is Forwarded Here
I’ll give a real life example. A different seller once had a hat listed for auction I was interested in. He had reason to believe thru family the hat was purchased during the yrs 1948 -1949, but it clearly had an OPS tag. I didn’t care that his timeline was off. But in answering my questions about the hat the seller told me that he had been contacted by a “Fedora Lounge expert” to tell him that his hat couldn’t be a 1948-1949 because the OPS tag wasn’t used until 1951. If you’re a potential buyer interested in the hat you would probably know that. Why would this “expert” take it upon himself to go after the seller for his honest mistake other than the experts own ego? No harm, no foul.
I situations like that the buyer was not INTENTIONALLY misrepresenting the item, they were giving information as they understood it.

Fraud is Knowingly and INTENTIONALLY misrepresenting an item to increase its value/desirability. BIG difference from citing possible family provenance.

Though your buyer beware is suggested for any transaction really.......and your point understood. That is why on high ticket items you often want multiple certificates of provenance AND a actionable guarantee of authenticity for those items.

PS: in this particular case, with a long and proven record of INTENTIONAL misrepresentation, Ebay would not be the only recourse, he could in fact be reported to the postal authorities......THAT would really bite him in the butt....I believe a fine of $10,000 per incidence is the current recommended penalty.....
 
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Messages
10,780
Location
Alabama
The U.S. Department of Justice Criminal Resource Manual Section 941.18 U.S.C. 1343 cites these as the key elements of wire fraud: “1) that the defendant voluntarily and intentionally devised or participated in a scheme to defraud another out of money; 2) that the defendant did so with the intent to defraud; 3) that it was reasonably foreseeable that interstate wire communications would be used; and 4) that interstate wire communications were in fact used.”

Every state also has a law covering internet based scams.

Jack is right. I agree the guy is a nit wit and a liar but is he really fraudulently representing a hat? Other than all the BS and lies about 'dad', I've not seen a hat represented as something it actually wasn't other than maybe it's actual age? Anyone around here ever been off about the age of a hat or seen another seller with a hat listed as something you knew it not to be? Most folks I've seen posting about this guy are known collectors with lots of eBay purchases under their belt; have any of you been taken by this guy or like me, you just don't want to read all the BS that goes along with his sales pitch? I've seen listings from members here that make my head spin trying to read them. Like their postings here, I've learned to scroll over them. This reminds me of all the Timothies Closet talk.

I've negotiated with the guy before, more than once. Like everyone else, I didn't have to. It was about the hat, not dad.
 
Messages
16,217
That is why on high ticket items you often want multiple certificates of provenance AND a actionable guarantee of authenticity for those items.
If a seller listed an OR sold thru the LBJ or Truman museum & was claiming it personally belonged to the former President because it had his name imprinted in it, without a COA the buyer should take responsibility for his mistake. Proving malicious intent vs an honest verbal misrepresentation by the seller would be very hard to prove in a court of law.
 

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