Want to buy or sell something? Check the classifieds
  • The Fedora Lounge is supported in part by commission earning affiliate links sitewide. Please support us by using them. You may learn more here.

IRVIN NUTS?...the ULTIMATE thread for those who love 'em!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Alan Eardley

One Too Many
Messages
1,500
Location
Midlands, UK
Irvin jackets in the literature

I read a lot of factual accounts of wartime experiences, and it often strikes me how few detailed references there are to the equipment and clothing that the men used and wore every day. They clearly had other concerns, even though their lives would have depended on their 'kit' on some occasions.

An exception is Spitfire Diary by EAW Smith, (William Kimber 1988) which I am reading at the moment. This is the personal record of P/O Ted Smith who joined 127 Squadron RAF (part of 2nd Tactical Airforce) after D-Day. 127 Squadron flew Spitfire IX and XIV in ground attack and support operations (dive bombing!) in the Low Countries and Germany.

It is clear that Irvin jackets were especially coveted within the unit as 'ground wear' as they were not issued. The men had to acquire them by 'alternative means' (Smith doesn't say why, but it was probably because they were engaged on low-level operations) sometimes in quite bad taste.

Here are a few extracts;

One of the pilots ('Gollie') has completed his tour of duty and is returning to the the UK. He gives away his kit...
"October 7th 1944 Grimbergen, Belgium.
Paddy Crozier was browned off. He had expected to 'win' Gollie's Irvin jacket. Gollie [had] also promised it to Geoff Davies. When Geoff did not come back, he promised it to another officer. Paddy was livid! I suppose we won't hear the last of it. Paddy still being without an Irvin jacket".

And later...Red 2 pilot CR Birbeck has not returned from a raid. He was not wearing his Irvin jacket. Eddie Eckert, the duty officer, gets the bad news on the 'red phone'...
"January 17th 1945 Woensdrecht.
The red phone rang and Eckert picked it up.. Someone from ops. must have asked him a question. He turned his head to look at the readiness board. 'Red two is CR Birbeck'. Then he said, 'Oh'. That's all he said. Then he walked across the room to the wooden plank seat and picked up Birbeck's Irvin jacket. He said, 'Paddy, this is your lucky day, sport. Birbeck got the chop. You get his jacket'. 'Isn't that callous, Eddie?' [said Paddy]' Is that - not - callous?' Then suddenly he beamed, 'It fits me very well, don't you think?'".

I think this indicates the way men thought in wartime, and how much Irvin jackets were coveted, even at that time.
There are, of course, some good photographs of the Squadron members, sometimes in Irvin jackets, sometimes in a variety of kit. On the cover the author is shown wearing an M1938 'Parsons' jacket!

Alan
 

aswatland

My Mail is Forwarded Here
Messages
3,338
Location
Kent, England
Alan, This is facinating stuff. As you say it demonstrates how prized Irvin jackets were. Of course at this time (late in the War) Irvin jackets were only issued to bomber crew.

There are very mentions in biographies of Irvin jackets being issued from the stores to pilots and air crew. Perhaps it was not considered significant.

On the same subject there are very few pictures of late War muli-panelled Irvins being worn.

I have just bought an electrically wired Air Chute Irvin which dates from the mid '30s. Do you know when electrically wired Irvins were first issued? I pressume this was later than the first conventional jackets in 1931?
 

Smithy

I'll Lock Up
Messages
5,139
Location
Norway
Great stuff Alan, thanks for those :eusa_clap

I'm like you Alan and absolutely devour memoirs and books on the RAF in WWII, and there aren't as many references to Irvins as one would expect. I know Clostermann mentions his, and off the top of my head, I think both Vigors and Sheddan do in their respective books.

From what I have seen Irvins seemed to have enjoyed a renaissance in the autumn winter of '44/'45, with many squadrons being based at makeshift airfields with less than satisfactory heating. One that springs to mind is 486(NZ) with Tempests at Vokel during that winter. 486 seems to have been particularly well equipped with photos showing nearly all aircrew and groundcrew wearing Irvins at this time. Just the thing for a frigid Dutch airfield in the height of winter!
 

Alan Eardley

One Too Many
Messages
1,500
Location
Midlands, UK
Smithy said:
Great stuff Alan, thanks for those :eusa_clap

I'm like you Alan and absolutely devour memoirs and books on the RAF in WWII, and there aren't as many references to Irvins as one would expect. I know Clostermann mentions his, and off the top of my head, I think both Vigors and Sheddan do in their respective books.

From what I have seen Irvins seemed to have enjoyed a renaissance in the autumn winter of '44/'45, with many squadrons being based at makeshift airfields with less than satisfactory heating. One that springs to mind is 486(NZ) with Tempests at Vokel during that winter. 486 seems to have been particularly well equipped with photos showing nearly all aircrew and groundcrew wearing Irvins at this time. Just the thing for a frigid Dutch airfield in the height of winter!

Smithy

And Guy Gibson VC mentions 'the smell of his flying suit' in his 'Enemy Coast ahead. Yes, I think that by the winter of '44 (remember how the exceptionally cold weather affected the Ardennes campaign) the Irvin had become as important for keeping the tactical airforce warm on the ground as it did for keeping the bomber force warm in the air.

Alan
 

Alan Eardley

One Too Many
Messages
1,500
Location
Midlands, UK
aswatland said:
Alan, This is facinating stuff. As you say it demonstrates how prized Irvin jackets were. Of course at this time (late in the War) Irvin jackets were only issued to bomber crew.

There are very mentions in biographies of Irvin jackets being issued from the stores to pilots and air crew. Perhaps it was not considered significant.

On the same subject there are very few pictures of late War muli-panelled Irvins being worn.

I have just bought an electrically wired Air Chute Irvin which dates from the mid '30s. Do you know when electrically wired Irvins were first issued? I pressume this was later than the first conventional jackets in 1931?

Andrew,

According to Eric Brown ('Wings on my Sleeve') the 'wired' suits were developed by RAE Farnborough at some time 'in the middle 1930s'. I've seen several that were probably from 1935, but I've not been able to pin down the introduction date more definitely than this. One could probably date the jacket and trousers if the introduction of the electrically-heated gloves and boot inserts could be dated?

BTW, the latest provable date that I have for a photograph of an Irvin jacket being worn by a serving pilot is 1957.

Alan
 

Smithy

I'll Lock Up
Messages
5,139
Location
Norway
Just remembered another one Alan...

George Barclay (249 Sqn) mentions his Irvin suit in his diaries.
 

Mike1973

A-List Customer
Messages
445
Location
Gateway to the World, Southampton!
Grandad's Irvin...

This has reminded me of my Grandad's Irvin! He was an Instructor NCO (in the Royal Warwickshire Regt, see avatar) and spent time at airfields in Northern Ireland during the war teaching RAF personnel about the Bren Gun. On one of these postings he managed to buy an Irvin jacket from a Canadian airman for the princely sum of £5 :eek:
A lot of money then... (My grandfather paid 4 guineas (£4 4s) for a tailor made suit just before the war started, for comparison)
He used it on his milk round after the war, and wore it into the ground...

Then my uncle resurected it in the 70's and wore it into the ground again in his open top MG... (I thinks it's remains are currently packed away in his wardrobe... I remember trying it on when I was a teenager)
 

Smithy

I'll Lock Up
Messages
5,139
Location
Norway
Providing it's not a total wreck Mike, it'd be nice to get somebody like Aero to restore the old girl.

Worth thinking about anyway!
 

PADDY

I'll Lock Up
Bartender
Messages
7,425
Location
METROPOLIS OF EUROPA
Mike, get your grandads' Irvin sorted.

How many families have something like that to remember their loved ones by? and the great thing is, you can still get use out of it too.

Dig it out please (you know you want to!!) and post some pics of you wearing it. Then we'll see what needs/can be done with it to fix it up for another few decades!!

BTW, the BSA Irvin is a classic (for the unintiated here, BSA is not 'a maker' of Irvins, but after the war, some biker into his BSA motorcycles has painted some jacket art on the back). It has a window into WWII but also a post war window into the time of rockers and bikers and greased back hair and Elvis..etc!! A true Brit classic!!:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

(my goodness I can almost hear the strains of "Land of Hope & Glory" in the background now!!;) ).
 

Edward

Bartender
Messages
24,790
Location
London, UK
PADDY said:
(my goodness I can almost hear the strains of "Land of Hope & Glory" in the background now!!;) ).

Shurely some early Cliff Richard - the "British Elvis." Ahem.

Edited to add:

From not being much of a fan, this plce has won me over to the virtues of Irvins.... I'm sorely tempted to try one of those What Price Glory jackets. I'm not a fan enough to want to spend the big money on an Irvin (I'm also saving for an A2 / B10 / B6 / B2, in roughly that order! :eek: ), but the price on those WPG jackets is very, very tempting.... if the quality is good (i.e. decently thick / durable and comparable to a modern leather in that sort of condition), that could be great for those winter days when the peacoat doesn't quite cut it....

(Somebody talk me out of it, please!) :p
 

blacklagoon

One of the Regulars
Messages
224
Location
united kingdom
original irvin help needed

I have recently won an original irvin flying jacket from ebay.It arrived in a really bad state,stinking horribly and huge wounds where the stitching has come undone over the years.there is a small hole in the back,about the size of a uk 20 p piece.I have placed the jacket outside in the sunlight,and the old musty smell has virtually vanished now.the internal sheepskin is in good condition,but the edges around the collar,waist and sleeves are badly worn.the overall leather on the outside body looks like dirty suede at the moment,but a bit of pecards will change that no doubt.
Over the years,someone has repaired a lot of it using thick white cotton thread,and replaced a few bits and bobs on the jacket with modern equivellants,the main zip is a YKK etc.the air vents under the arm are strange,the holes are in totally different places,the left vent has different holes in different places than the left vent,and one has been repaired with white stitching.this leads me to believe one,or both underarm air vents,may not be original.
Overall,i really am not sure if the whole jacket is original.I personally think the entire main body and sheepskin is original,including the sleeves.the zippers and zips on the sleeve may not be original in anyway,as the zips are labelled: made in england and SWIFT.but the zips are lovely old looking things,and i think they look good on the jacket.
I was wondering,if i post a few pictures,or links to a load of pictures i have taken of different parts of the jacket,could any of you have a quick look,and tell me which parts are original,and which parts are not original.if at all possible,could someone advise me how i can get it stitched again.I have written to aero leather asking for a quote,but they have not replied.I am thinking of sending it off to a leather restorer,so he can stitch all the open stitcheing wounds up.I am sure a professional will do a much better job than i ever could do.
I will post a few links,to the pictures i have just uploaded to photobucket.com.i don't want to share the entire album,as some pics are personal,so i will try and add links to the individual pictures.

1: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/22.jpg

2: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/21.jpg

3: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/20.jpg

4: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/19.jpg

5: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/18.jpg

6: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/17.jpg

7: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/16.jpg

8: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/15.jpg

9: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/14.jpg

10: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/13.jpg

11: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/12.jpg

12: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/11.jpg

13: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/10.jpg

14: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/9.jpg

15: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/8.jpg

16: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/7.jpg

17: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/6.jpg

18: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/5.jpg

19: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/4.jpg

20: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/3.jpg

21: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/2.jpg

22: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/1.jpg


I have posted the URL links on my photobucket site,hopefully i have chosen the correct ones for this forum,and they will take you to an individual pictures,rather than fill this thread with heavy loading pictures.
Thank you for any help anyone may be able to offer me regarding this jacket,and information concerning it.
 

blacklagoon

One of the Regulars
Messages
224
Location
united kingdom
a little extra

a little extra info.there are no labels whatsoever on or inside the jacket,for me to confirm it is an irvin.the only label i have seen,is in picture 4.it seems to be a name tag,with the name Alan Simpson written in red.hopefully,this is just a name tag of a previous owner,and not a secret manufacturers name tag.this name tag is situated at the bottom of the sleeve,inside,near where the sleeve zipper is.
It is very similar in state as MIKE1973's original irvin jacket,which i might add,is how i am going to keep it.original as best i can.like mike,i want to keep the worn sheepskin edges etc.
Link to MIKE1973's irvin jacket pics: http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=14753
 

Mike1973

A-List Customer
Messages
445
Location
Gateway to the World, Southampton!
Well saved!

I would love to see this old jacket brought back to life! The 'teddy bear' style fleece looks great!
To my very unexperienced eyes it doesn't look to far gone, all the panels are intact? Main problem seems to be rotten stitching...? I'd say in much better condition than mine, just in 'kit form'...

In the end I just patched the rips in my Irvin, and wore it as it was. Seemed pointless to restore it. Even though I have since bought a beaut of a late war Irvin from aswatland on here, I still like to wear the old 'BSA'! It's got a certain charm, and I don't have to worry about damaging it!
It's even been back on a BSA! (my wifes M20)
 

blacklagoon

One of the Regulars
Messages
224
Location
united kingdom
cheers mike

thank you mike,it is a nice looking jacket at the end of the day.I am saving up for something else,so it will be a few weeks until i can afford to buy a tub of pecards.when i do get some pecards,i'll post a few pictures of it again,but this time with me wearing it aswell.my dad is over the moon i got it,and said '' HE'S '' looking forward to rubbing oil into it and doing it up.i said i will help him......lol.( a typical dad ). i'll let him rub as much pecards as he wants into it,as he has always wanted to touch a real irvin flying jacket.
After i have done up the leather with pecards,i'll try and find someone local who is willing and able to sew leather,and do a decent job of it.if not,i will phone around and send it off to a leather restorer to redo the damaged stitching,so it is wearable.
The actual size of the jacket is about 36 - 38 inch chest.i have tried it on,and it fits perfectly.it is a good fit on me,but means i cannot wear too much underneath it,a shirt or a thin jersey at the most.that makes it perfect for spring,summer and autumn wear.it means i won't be tempted to wear it in winter,and risk damaging it with the nasty winter weather.
I will have to try and find some way of cleaning all the horrible bacteria and germs the sheepskin has collected over the years.i have given it a good little beating in the garden with a small flimsy fly swat,which got rid of a lot of dust etc,but i think it needs a good sterelising,to kill any horrible little thingys that will be lurking in the sheepskin.
Thank you for the reply MIKE,you really gave me a lot of confidence with it.i was beginning to think a bit negatively about it as the days were going by,and your reply has envigoured me.hopefully,it will come up nicley.either way,i will post more pics of it in the future,as i progress with it.
Oh,yes MIKE,all the panels are intact,except for a small 20 p sized hole in the upper right panel,which is no problem really.I think you are correct,the only real problem is the rotten stitching,which hopefully can be easily repaired cheaply.
 

Smithy

I'll Lock Up
Messages
5,139
Location
Norway
blacklagoon said:
makes it perfect for spring,summer and autumn wear.it means i won't be tempted to wear it in winter,and risk damaging it with the nasty winter weather

Good grief man! You can't wear an Irvin in summer, well you can try but you'll probably get heat stroke. Don't worry about winter wearing, that's the time to wear an Irvin, and unless you're a pilot of open cockpit aircraft, it's the time you'll get most wear out of your jacket.

If you want it patched up and repaired, then Aero Leather are one of the best to send it to. They do a lot of Irvin restoring and reconditioning.
 

Alan Eardley

One Too Many
Messages
1,500
Location
Midlands, UK
This jacket is not in as bad condition as it seems at first view. I've restored much worse than this. Hand-sewing is slow but cheap and suprisingly effective if you use two needles, one from the back and one from the front. I suspect you may be able to restore some of the 'strips', but others may need replacing. Making them is easy if you can find the right type of leather.

You have a typical example of 'edge wear' and 'cotton rot'. It can be fixed relatively easily. If the edge wear is too advanced too live with (and many people actually like it as it give 'character'), the affected pieces can often be replaced invisibly.

Tell your Dad to go easy with the Pecards - you shouldn't over use on sheepskin. Try vacuuming the fleece carefully - you don't want to pull 'flocks' out.

The sleeve zips are actually older than the jacket and are collectable in their own right. If you want be be more authentic, Lightning zips are available in repro form that can be made to fit.


With some work, this could be a nice jacket.

Alan
 

aswatland

My Mail is Forwarded Here
Messages
3,338
Location
Kent, England
As Alan says this Irvin could easily be restored. Looking at th scans it dates from 1941-3. The Swift sleeve zips are replacements but date from the 1930s. Apart from the YKK main zip everything else appears to be original. Just get busy with the old needle and a little Pecards! Andrew
 

blacklagoon

One of the Regulars
Messages
224
Location
united kingdom
thank you so much

Thank you all so very much for reassuring me most of the jacket is original.I really appreciate the kind advice you have given me.I will try and do my best to restore it,and post a few pictures when it has been restored,for you all to see.don't worry smithy,i won't be wearing it in summer as often as i appeared to imply.I do actually wear a cirrus during this summer,with no overheating problems,because this year,the summer weather were i am has been an average temp of about 18 degrees.it's good for quickly warming up.I have contacted aero leathers about a quote and sent them a few pictures so they can check it out.if it's not too expensive,i will send it to them,to ensure a good job is done of it.
once again,thank you for all your kindness and helpful advice.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Forum statistics

Threads
107,304
Messages
3,033,558
Members
52,748
Latest member
R_P_Meldner
Top