Questions About the United States Navy Peacoat

[Peacoat]

I picked up a 1976 Vi-Mil, Inc peacoat in a size 38L. Fits better in the shoulders and the sleeves than the 1970 Pembroke peacoat in a size 40L. I knew this coat to have the silver metal buttons, but I figured I could swap them out for the black plastic anchor buttons. It did not occur to my primitive mind that the metal buttons would be noticeably smaller and, obviously, the button holes as well. Anyone ever swapped out the metal buttons on a Zumwalt era peacoat?

1976 was the year the Zumwalt buttons became mandatory, having been phased in since 1974, if I remember correctly. The Zumwalt "pewter" buttons were required until 1984 when the larger fouled anchor buttons returned to service.

My initial reaction was that with this much swapping of button types and sizes, the button holes would fit both buttons. But I thought I should do a bit of testing. I went to my button drawer in the bedroom and grabbed, in the dark, the first buttons I saw (my wife was a bit ill and had gone to bed earlier).

When fitted through the button hole of the pewter button hole coat, the fit was tighter than I thought it should be. I looked at the button and it was a WWI button. Evidently they are a bit thicker than the modern buttons, being made of Bakelite and all.

So, back into the bedroom I went. Had to turn on the light, which was not popular with my wife. Had to explain what I was doing. She wasn't impressed. Found the modern buttons and got out of the bedroom as quickly as possible. The fit of the fouled anchor button into the pewter button hole is a bit tight, but certainly manageable. I would say the button holes are about the same size.

My micrometer, which will give an exact measurement of the two button holes on the Zumwalt coat and the pre Zumwalt coat, is in my shop in the garage downstairs. After all of the above, I don't have the energy to go down and get it tonight.

If I can remember to do it, I will get the micrometer and make the measurements tomorrow. If I don't remember, someone can post here and remind me.

 

[ZenEdge]

1976 was the year the Zumwalt buttons became mandatory, having been phased in since 1974, if I remember correctly. The Zumwalt "pewter" buttons were required until 1984 when the larger fouled anchor buttons returned to service.

My initial reaction was that with this much swapping of button types and sizes, the button holes would fit both buttons. But I thought I should do a bit of testing. I went to my button drawer in the bedroom and grabbed, in the dark, the first buttons I saw (my wife was a bit ill and had gone to bed earlier).

When fitted through the button hole of the pewter button hole coat, the fit was tighter than I thought it should be. I looked at the button and it was a WWI button. Evidently they are a bit thicker than the modern buttons, being made of Bakelite and all.

So, back into the bedroom I went. Had to turn on the light, which was not popular with my wife. Had to explain what I was doing. She wasn't impressed. Found the modern buttons and got out of the bedroom as quickly as possible. The fit of the fouled anchor button into the pewter button hole is a bit tight, but certainly manageable. I would say the button holes are about the same size.

My micrometer, which will give an exact measurement of the two button holes on the Zumwalt coat and the pre Zumwalt coat, is in my shop in the garage downstairs. After all of the above, I don't have the energy to go down and get it tonight.

If I can remember to do it, I will get the micrometer and make the measurements tomorrow. If I don't remember, someone can post here and remind me.

Thank you, Peacoat. I also plan to compare the button holes of this Zumwalt coat to the button holes on my nineties Sterlingwear this weekend. Hopefully, modern anchor buttons will work. The fit of the 38L is much better through the shoulders.

 

[Peacoat]

@ZenEdge: My caliper (not micrometer) shows 1.74" for both the pewter button holes on the Zumwalt coat and the fouled anchor button holes, so you will be OK.

As I erroneously called my caliper a micrometer in my earlier post, I thought I should explain so as to not be thought a fool by any machinists on the lounge. I really know better.

I used the jaws at the top for the inside measurement.

Vernier Caliper

 

[ZenEdge]

@ZenEdge: My caliper (not micrometer) shows 1.74" for both the pewter button holes on the Zumwalt coat and the fouled anchor button holes, so you will be OK.

As I erroneously called my caliper a micrometer in my earlier post, I thought I should explain so as to not be thought a fool by any machinists on the lounge. I really know better.

I used the jaws at the top for the inside measurement.

Vernier Caliper
View attachment 155728

Thank you for going to all that trouble, Peacoat. The button holes on this 76 Vi-Mil are smaller, but the larger modern plastic buttons will fit. I am curious about the wool. The label simply read 100% wool and does not specify kersey nor melton. The color and texture are very similar to my 1990 Sterlingwear. I held up the coat next to various black clothes and shoes, and I could not see any hint of blue. By contrast, the 68 Pembroke had a definite blue tint and a smooth finish.

 

[Peacoat]

The final test you can do is to take it outside in the shade on a sunny day and make the comparison to known black objets. Also compare it outside to your 1990 Sterlingwear. From what you noted above, I think the result is going to be what you have already seen. If it doesn't have the smooth, blue tint finish of the '68 Pembroke, then it isn't Kersey.

Unfortunately, this may be one of the pre 1980 Melton coats that is not marked as a Melton. It is the first time I have heard of this anomaly.

 

[Recoil Rob]

Always wanted on as a kid, wore a friends a few times but 45 years later I just pulled this off Ebay and wondering if it the real deal. It seems like the wool isn't as thick as I remember them being, I thought they used to be able to stand up on there own. Come to think of it my friends was probably his dad's who was in the USN in WWII.

Very dark blue, 3 buttons/side, label inside breast pocket. It was cheap enough ($40) and in excellent condition, but what say you? Year it was made?


thanks,

Rob

 

[Peacoat]

Yes, it's the real deal. A 1973 Pembroke. It should be the Kersey material with just a hint of blue showing when outside and not in the direct sun.

I don't think any of my peacoats will stand on their own. May slump down to half mast, but not up by themselves.

Interesting to note that in 1973 it is marked as a "R" which leads me to believe there were also short and long sizes that year, and maybe other years as well.

 

[Recoil Rob]

Pretty cool, thanks for the help. 1973 would have been about the time my buddy was wearing his dads.
I have a USN G-1 from the same period, 1975 I think...

 

[ZenEdge]

The final test you can do is to take it outside in the shade on a sunny day and make the comparison to known black objets. Also compare it outside to your 1990 Sterlingwear. From what you noted above, I think the result is going to be what you have already seen. If it doesn't have the smooth, blue tint finish of the '68 Pembroke, then it isn't Kersey.

Unfortunately, this may be one of the pre 1980 Melton coats that is not marked as a Melton. It is the first time I have heard of this anomaly.

It's snowing here in NY so I will have to wait for a sunny day. I compared it to some vintage CPO shirts that have a blue tint and the coat certainly appears black.

 

[Recoil Rob]

I'm also in NY, it's snowing but it's actually perfect for it. I just took my new acquisition outside for a few seconds and, even though it looked black inside the house, the navy blue popped right out.

 

[Peacoat]

Recoil is right. As long as it is bright out, and in the snow is often bright, the blue will pop out. Not so if it is completely overcast as in a heavy snow. Surely @ZenEdge isn't worried about a little snow? But then, if he is a bit east of Lake Erie or Lake Ontario, it may be more than just ". . . a little snow."

 

[ZenEdge]

It was overcast today and next to the midnight blues of my CPO shirts (WWII, 68, 71), the 76 Vi-Mil did still appear black. Perhaps a different shade of black. I hope to one day find a midnight blue kersey 73 or earlier in a size 38L or 40L (that has not fallen victim to moth larvae).

 

[Peacoat]

@ZenEdge: You need to compare your peacoat to a known black object, not a midnight blue object. Your result may well be the same as above, but at least it will give a definitive answer.

 

[Tec]

Bit the bullet and found a WWII pea coat on eBay. The 1961 one just got me into that mood, such good quality coats for a fraction of the cost of the lesser quality ones made today. It's missing a button so I'll buy some military spec extras. I'll post pics when I have it and take 'em.

 

[Peacoat]

Bit the bullet and found a WWII pea coat on eBay. The 1961 one just got me into that mood, such good quality coats for a fraction of the cost of the lesser quality ones made today. It's missing a button so I'll buy some military spec extras. I'll post pics when I have it and take 'em.

Fortunately for you, the buttons on the WWII coat are the fouled anchor buttons which are stilled being used. They are readily available, especially on ebay.

 

[Tec]

Fortunately for you, the buttons on the WWII coat are the fouled anchor buttons which are stilled being used. They are readily available, especially on ebay.

Yep! Already ordered a set of 4 (used) off eBay.

 

[Spoonbelly]

Bit the bullet and found a WWII pea coat on eBay. The 1961 one just got me into that mood, such good quality coats for a fraction of the cost of the lesser quality ones made today. It's missing a button so I'll buy some military spec extras. I'll post pics when I have it and take 'em.

Bit the bullet and found a WWII pea coat on eBay. The 1961 one just got me into that mood, such good quality coats for a fraction of the cost of the lesser quality ones made today. It's missing a button so I'll buy some military spec extras. I'll post pics when I have it and take 'em.

Caution!! These pea coats are habit forming. I know as I have fallen victim to them.

 

[Tec]

I've now officially read 13 years worth of posts in this thread, from the very start. It's a bitter sweet feeling, a little like finishing a really good TV series. It took a while, but thankfully I didn't actually read it all in a single day (I'm not that crazy).

Such a wealth of information from you guys in here, it's great stuff. Too bad Photobucket is terrible and purges a bunch of images from its database; so many broken images that could have been preserved. I suppose part of that blame can be put toward the fact that forum software wasn't as good years ago as it is today. The caching + image proxy feature of the current software should be helpful when people don't use the image uploader directly. Although Imgur is always a wise choice, they never delete anything unless the uploader does.

Anyway, now that I have all this peacoat knowledge in my brain, I can hopefully help out with the newer users that show up as well. A few of you have been consistent over years helping people out — very commendable. I won't mention names out of fear of missing someone, but I'm sure you know who you are!

 

[Peacoat]

Yes, I know who I am. Thank you for the compliment!

I hope you took notes during the read of the thread. All information in this thread isn't accurate, but I think after separating the wheat from the chaff, you can mostly figure it out.

I just wonder how long it will be before Imgur feels it has enough of a base and enough photos stored, that it can hold our photos hostages until we pay big bucks to them for the ability to use their services? Just like Photobucket did.

 

[Tec]

Just got that WWII peacoat today, it's in amazing condition. Even better condition than the 1961 coat that I have. As the seller mentioned in the listing, only some moth tracking on the left sleeve near the shoulder. Hard to see and definitely not an issue. The buttons will need to be resewn (I'll have all of them done because the ones that are still strongly attached aren't facing downward).

Everything else looks to be in mint condition. I don't like to use that word, but there are truly no issues with this coat. The lining seems to have been replaced, as it looks unworn and is smooth to the touch. There's no tag in the coat, although I do see there may have been one near the collar, somewhat canted to the left, not centered. Which would be strange if this lining is new.

Bad lighting today, so no pictures yet (I'd like to get the buttons done anyway).

My only issue with these WWII peacoats is that the lapels don't lie flat, as was mentioned in this thread. I don't really like buttoning it up all the way, so I'll see if I can train them to lie down a bit. I don't mind if they're not completely flat, but on this coat they pretty much just spring forward.