Re-blocking to Long Oval.

[Nyah]

Would it be a good idea to order a hat with a dimensional brim (e.g. Akubra Fed IV) but, have the retailer reblock it to a Long Oval? I recently received my first panama. The retailer specially blocked it as Long Oval at my request. That made the brim shorter in front/back by approx .25". So that got me wondering if re-blocking a felt hat to Long Oval would result in a somewhat normal looking brim and, if it would be a good idea in general. I'd prefer the brim to be as uniform as possible and, don't like a brim with over-snap in front/back (a result of regular oval being worn on a long oval head).

 

[TheDane]

The retailer specially blocked it as Long Oval at my request. That made the brim shorter in front/back by approx .25"

Then it was not done right. A regular oval and a long oval in the same hat-size have the same circumference. Re-blocking from regular to long oval should not affect the brim-width in any way. Only an up-sizing or down-sizing would.

 

[fedoracentric]

Yeah, it seems odd to me that you lost a quarter inch of brim just going from a regular oval to a long oval in the same size. How is that even possible?

 

[Art Fawcett]

You are almost right Ole, but not exactly. In the case of a felt hat, when the brim is cut using a rounding jack ( which almost every hatter uses) you can get the front and back measurements right but, because of the construction of the Jack, a long oval block with it's longer sides will push the blade farther out creating as much as 1/4" wider sides than front & back. In Nyah's quest, he would have to make the brim dimensional to keep the same specs. With a panama there is no choice since the brim is not cut. A long oval will take more from the front & back of the body simply because of it's construction with no other choices unless you welt the brim

 

[Art Fawcett]

Yeah, it seems odd to me that you lost a quarter inch of brim just going from a regular oval to a long oval in the same size. How is that even possible?

When reblocking from oval to long oval more felt is needed front & back to keep the same crown height and it has to come from somewhere.. I know, it doesn't seem right but true. In the case of the panama, it cannot be stretched crown height wise , felt you can gain some by thinning the felt front & back.

 

[TheDane]

Art, with all due respect, I find that a little puzzling. That would in my mind leave the hatter with two options, producing long oval hats:

1) Always supply a brim, that is 1/4" wider than long
2) Always fiddle around with knives and/or scissors after the use of the rounding jack

I would have expected, that the hatter just used a rounding jack, suited for use with long oval blocks - if he's not using a brim-cutting machine of course. Why not just use a rounding jack with a little more "open" arch?

 

[Art Fawcett]

Art, with all due respect, I find that a little puzzling. That would in my mind leave the hatter with two options, producing long oval hats:

1) Always supply a brim, that is 1/4" wider than long
2) Always fiddle around with knives and/or scissors after the use of the rounding jack

I would have expected, that the hatter just used a rounding jack, suited for use with long oval blocks - if he's not using a brim-cutting machine of course. Why not just use a rounding jack with a little more "open" arch?

That IS one solution Ole, but not one available to most unless it becomes an issue and one reshapes a rounding jack for that purpose.. With the panama that option doesn't exist.

 

[TheDane]

If both you need more felt - and the rounding jack offsets with 1/4" - the problems must be quite substantial, re-blocking a felt hat from regular to long oval(?)

 

[Joshbru3]

Art, with all due respect, I find that a little puzzling. That would in my mind leave the hatter with two options, producing long oval hats:

1) Always supply a brim, that is 1/4" wider than long
2) Always fiddle around with knives and/or scissors after the use of the rounding jack

I would have expected, that the hatter just used a rounding jack, suited for use with long oval blocks - if he's not using a brim-cutting machine of course. Why not just use a rounding jack with a little more "open" arch?

Ole, I have also experienced the same issue as Art mentioned. The rounding jack follows the base of the block, so a long oval block with throw the brim measurements slightly off. If the hatter were to use a "circle" template with a hole in the middle and cut around that in a perfect circle, the brim width would be independent of the block shape. However, because there is a relationship between the block oval profile and the rounding jack, the brim is effected as well. Even on a "regular" block, the brim is always slightly off by 1/16 - 1/32 of an inch. I have measured vintage hats as well and a 2 1/4 inch brim for example is never 2 1/4 inches all the way around. You can get close.....close enough for the human eye, but the fine tuning details such as edge sanding will usually tidy everything up.

 

[TheDane]

Ole, I have also experienced the same issue as Art mentioned. The rounding jack follows the base of the block, so a long oval block with throw the brim measurements slightly off. If the hatter were to use a "circle" template with a hole in the middle and cut around that in a perfect circle, the brim width would be independent of the block shape. However, because there is a relationship between the block oval profile and the rounding jack, the brim is effected as well. Even on a "regular" block, the brim is always slightly off by 1/16 - 1/32 of an inch. I have measured vintage hats as well and a 2 1/4 inch brim for example is never 2 1/4 inches all the way around. You can get close.....close enough for the human eye, but the fine tuning details such as edge sanding will usually tidy everything up.

Still only if the arch is too "narrow". If the arch of the rounding jack was opened a bit, there would be no problem in that respect

The gap between the block and the jack is, what we're talking about. That should not be hard to avoid:

 

[Joshbru3]

Still only if the arch is too "narrow". If the arch of the rounding jack was opened a bit, there would be no problem in that respect

I just assumed the original rounding jack design was pretty standard across the board of all manufactures. I wonder if a rounding jack was ever built with a wider arch? [huh]

 

[TheDane]

I just assumed the original rounding jack design was pretty standard across the board of all manufactures. I wonder if a rounding jack was ever built with a wider arch? [huh]

I would find it more strange, if manufacturers did not supply a rounding jack, useable with their long oval blocks

 

[Joshbru3]

I would find it more strange, if manufacturers did not supply a rounding jack, useable with their long oval blocks

That would make sense to me....but we on the lounge are hat connoisseurs and things like a 1/16 of a difference matter to us. I feel most people in the past (and the present) bought a hat, tossed it around, and when it wore out, bought a new one. I doubt too many people, unless they loved hats, even noticed little subtle details as we do.

 

[TheDane]

That would make sense to me....but we on the lounge are hat connoisseurs and things like a 1/16 of a difference matter to us. I feel most people in the past (and the present) bought a hat, tossed it around, and when it wore out, bought a new one. I doubt too many people, unless they loved hats, even noticed little subtle details as we do.

I respectfully disagree. With the focus on details hatters had, I think they would have had focus on that detail too - and the number mentioned was not 1/16" but 1/4"

 

[Joshbru3]

I respectfully disagree. With the focus on details hatters had, I think they would have had focus on that detail too

I also respectfully disagree. I have owned/handled/sold hundreds of vintage hats and I can honestly tell you that I have noticed uneven brims, un-sanded edges, misaligned stitches, etc. While vintage hats (especially pre-ww2) are FAR superior than anything made today, they were being made on a much grander scale for the larger hat wearing public. Not every vintage hat is 100% perfect.

 

[fedoracentric]

It just seems like losing a full quarter inch is excessive. I understand variations of even an eighth of an inch. But a full quarter?

 

[TheDane]

Not every vintage hat is 100% perfect.

That, I thought, was obvious - which is why, I didn't state anything like that. I still wonder, why such an issue wasn't solved in an obvious way. The interesting thing is, that the adjustable arch, mainly used for stiff hats, was used to produce a brim 1/4" to 1/2" wider than long - which was considered of very high importance. Some things seem not quite coherent here.

 

[Art Fawcett]

If both you need more felt - and the rounding jack offsets with 1/4" - the problems must be quite substantial, re-blocking a felt hat from regular to long oval(?)

Ole, I think you are characterizing the issue as a "problem" whereas the industry simply accepts this as "normal". Now, I agree, there are solutions to this by re-arching the jack and that will take care of much of it but in all of my years and in my memory ( failing as it does sometimes) I have never been confronted with this before. Nyah has posed what for him is a "problem" and I don't discount that it is to him but the solution often can be more problematic than the "problem". I would suggest that a wide oval hat with a brim wider on the sides than front & back IS normal industry wide. Another solution would be to use a narrow roller on a brim cutting machine but I've only seen a few of those and could never justify the cost even if I could find one for sale. I know that Hatco has one, I've seen it in action and I believe Graham of Optimo has one but those are the only ones I've had any access to. Also, in re reading your post, please remember i said "as much as" 1/4". This would actually be desirable in a Homburg.

 

[TheDane]

No, I don't see it as a problem. I was raised, surrounded by tools and have been using tools all my life. I always wonder when simple tools don't exactly fit the purpose, they were made for. Craftsmen are usually ingenious and inventive people, that are fantastic, developing and customising tools - and to order changes in tools from suppliers. I'm just struck with wonder ... that's all

 

[Rabbit]

I've read this discussion with great interest, Art and Ole.
From memory, I believe most of my vintage hats are slightly shorter in the front/back than the sides, and I thought that was done on purpose, perhaps for aesthetic reasons. I clearly remember that the front, at least, often seemed to be a tad shorter.
My (apparently erroneous) layman's theory was that the brim front would actually appear to be longer than the rest of the brim if it were the same width all around, because the face is sort of like a vertical line from which the brim emerges, while the sides and back are rounded by the shape of the skull. Shortening the front a tad would actually make it look more even.
So much for theory.


Very interesting that there's a purely technical reason for this, after all.