Rebel with a tie on

[Matt Deckard]

There is a famous scene in rebel without a cause where James Dean is sitting in a room with a detective questioning him and his father standing beside, both clad in suits and ties James Dean wearing a white shirt and tie and dress trousers. Many times over in the movie you see James in a white “T” and jeans and that is what is shown to be the look of the rebel. The ones against society. He being in the dress shirt and tie was not odd in those days, though for his character it was a sign of him conforming to the order which his parents and society placed on his shoulders.

I have a problem. I talked to my Friend about a layout for Classic Style magazine that would show a man in a suit and tie and hat surrounded by onlookers wearing everyday street clothes of today such as like khakis and jeans and t-shirts and polo shirts and the odd punk here and there. She asked me why not do it the other way around and show reality with the men wearing the suits and the oddball being the guy wearing the jeans and a t-shirt; odd she said that, as I thought the one wearing the tie nowadays was the odd man out.

I through the idea at a couple others and they had the same mentality. They perceived the suit and tie as the conformist and the norm even though they themselves did not wear suits or ties or dressy clothes to work.

They think they are rebelling!

I can right now imagine a remake of Rebel with a cause showing James Dean's character wearing a three button brown pinstripe suit and red striped tie with his hat on the table to the side. Father looking on wearing his jeans and logo t-shirt while the police officer in his polo shirt with embroidered badge and green cargo pants attempts to question him… Today people don’t understand. My own parents never understood. It’s a rebellion to wear a suit and tie. People don’t want to have to dress up it’s a burden when they are somewhere and outclassed and they feel it in their hearts just as much as the man in the suit felt it 50 years ago when the t-shirt wearing youngsters hit the streets and the fathers saw that the suit would be pushed aside because the t-shirt and jeans was too easy to wear.

Am I the blind one? Is the suit still the norm on the streets. Do I have really bad eyesight, or am I truly the rebel with a tie?

I was at the RenFaire earlier this year and wore my linen suit and a tan hat. Nothing truly outrageous and to me nothing costume… though as I walked by the 50 year old men dressed as wizards and the overcleavaged women pulled out there cameras and took photos of the guy in the suit and tie. Even the queen requested my presence though I declined not acknowledging her authority as a citizen of the United States who by right knows all men are created equal.

So I’m the rebel in a sea of people dressed in jeans who think they are rebelling? How did this happen? Why is it that I can be one on one with my friends who believe themselves to be on fashions uniquest cutting edge of rebellion and they see me as the conformist?
I stand out like a sore thumb like a kid guy wearing a Mohawk in the 50’s and the ones that say I am conforming blend into the background.

It’s topsy turvy

What do you think?

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Sounds like an episode of The Twilight Zone.

But people I think really do see themselves as casual anti-establishment types, and do not realize that it's truly they who are conforming!
Perhaps this paradox of perception will eventually wear off?
Suits are I suppose, still percieved solely as corporate attire, and thus part of "The Establishment" ?

 

[Marc Chevalier]

It's a type of rebellion that plays by an old rulebook. You're rebelling against today but conforming with the past. Call it retro-conformity.

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[Feraud]

You are exactly right Matt. The rebels are not the ones in jeans, funky t-shirts and perfectly messed hair. The true rebels against the norm and conformity today are those walking around in suits, ties, and fedoras. If you ask them why they dress like that they have a reason. It is a reason beyond "what everyone else wears". It is not off the rack at The Gap or Abercrombie & Fitch. It is a look that includes reason and decision.
I hope the younger Loungers read this thread and keep this in mind when their friends question their fashion choices and pressure them to conform to what is "cool", a.k.a. pre-packaged conformity.

The photoshoot should absolutely show the rebel in a suit and the conformists in their bland jeans, t-shirts, and oversized glasses.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

The true rebels against the norm and conformity today are those walking around in suits, ties, and fedoras.

I disagree. There are no true rebels against the norm and conformity today, because there really is no norm. You can wear just about anything you want -- including a suit and tie -- and no one is going to socially castrate you for it, especially in the big city. This wasn't the case fifty+ years ago ... and it isn't the case in many parts of the world.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: you'd love living in Santiago, Chile. Even the gofers and mailroom boys wear suits over there.



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[Harp]

Pause for the Cause

Sartorial issues aside, society expects reasonable conformity,
locus-pocus, and being suited amidst costume period design wear
will cause a stir. A knave jack, deliberate rebel gets attention whether
his handle is Dean or Deckard. Be yourself, easy in your own skin
and threads, riding a smile and a spitshine.

 

[Dinerman]

I feel I'm rebelling slightly in my wearing vintage stuff. Black T and ripped jeans are so overdone in Highschool. Everyone's rebelling, and they all end up looking the same. So by me conforming to old style, I stand out.

 

[Matt Deckard]

I disagree. There are no true rebels against the norm and conformity today, because there really is no norm. You can wear just about anything you want -- including a suit and tie -- and no one is going to socially castrate you for it, especially in the big city. This wasn't the case fifty+ years ago ... and it isn't the case in many parts of the world.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: you'd love living in Santiago, Chile. Even the gofers and mailroom boys wear suits over there.



.

Are you joking? I've been told by friends I have to dress down in order to allow for them to hang out with me.

 

[Feraud]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: you'd love living in Santiago, Chile. Even the gofers and mailroom boys wear suits over there.



.

It sounds great!

 

[Marc Chevalier]

It's a snobbish kind of rebelliousness. It says, "I look better than the masses, because I am tastefully dressed." Again, you're breaking today's rules by following an older -- and perhaps even more dictatorial -- set of rules.

.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

It sounds great!

That's what I thought, too. But after a few years of it, I found all those walking suits dull. Y'all might find this hard to believe ... but when you're surrounded by an entire population of classically, tastefully dressed people, then you find yourself longing for the sight of something different, even if it's in bad taste. I actually looked forward to seeing a pair of unpolished shoes!

The grass is always greener, as they say ...

.

 

[Matt Deckard]

It's a snobbish kind of rebelliousness. It says, "I look better than the masses, because I am tastefully dressed." Again, you're breaking today's rules by following an older -- and perhaps even more dictatorial -- set of rules.

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Did somebody say rebelling against the norm?

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Yes. Feraud did.

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[Feraud]

It's a snobbish kind of rebelliousness. It says, "I look better than the masses, because I am tastefully dressed." Again, you're breaking today's rules by following an older -- and perhaps even more dictatorial -- set of rules.

.

That is true. Any kind of rebellion is snobbish if based on superficial issues like dress. I have known many punks who thought themselves better than everyone because they wore the worst looking clothes. They were badly dressed snobs. [huh] In fact, the reason I got out of punk (years ago) was because I realized my friends were no better than the jocks and guidos they despised! They were conformists of another stripe.
We seemed to have arrived at today's level of casual dress based on wanting to rebel against the conformity and uncomfortable dress from the past. "Business casual" is alive and doing very well in NYC. Most men do not wear ties let alone a suit in the city.

 

[Feraud]

That's what I thought, too. But after a few years of it, I found all those walking suits dull. Y'all might find this hard to believe ... but when you're surrounded by an entire population of classically, tastefully dressed people, then you find yourself longing for the sight of something different, even if it's in bad taste. I actually looked forward to seeing a pair of unpolished shoes!

The grass is always greener, as they say!

.

A great point!

 

[Matthew Dalton]

I think in our collective consciousness "The Man" still wears a suit and tie, this perception is probably held up by movies, classic stereotypes, the clothes of the rich and our employers etc.

There is rebellion in attitude and rebellion in fashion. I think perception of one can lead to an assumption of the latter. That is to say, if someone has a bad attitude it's easy to see them as a "rebel"; on top of that they probably dress like a slob. So they are rebels and their clothing is therefore rebellious.

If I am a gentleman my mild attitude not getting anyone's back up could be seen as conformity; if I am not offensive then I am not rebellious. Since I am dressed as a gentleman my clothing is not rebellious and I am a conformist.



Ultimately though I think people just bend their perceptions until they see themselves in a "positive" light. They want to be a rebel, but they're also deathly afraid of not fitting in with everyone else. They are rebels in their t-shirt and jeans, they are unique and special.

You in your suit, well you're not unique and special, you're just different and weird. But you're still a conformist, because someone is conforming and it certainly couldn't be THEM.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

So, all those people that we see in vintage photos and film, were, on the inside, dying to be set free from the constraints of conformity?
Maybe the same cycle of rebellion will repeat itself in reverse?

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Here's a mystery, and it ties in with Matt's musings about rebellion.


Suits are advertised all over the place. We see ads and articles about them in major magazines. They continue to show up on catwalks in every major fashion show. And as far as I can tell, the big department stores still offer a large selection of suits. Downtown L.A.'s Jonathan Club and California Club still require that suits or sportcoats be worn by men for lunch. So ... are suits really disappearing? Or is it that you and I aren't working in professions or living in areas where suits continue to be worn?


My sense is that neckties will disappear long before suits and sportcoats do. Perhaps that's why I have a lot of ties: so that I can continue rebelling for decades to come.


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[Marc Chevalier]

So, all those people that we see in vintage photos and film, were, on the inside, dying to be set free from the constraints of conformity?

There's a reason why the '60s happened.

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[Matt Deckard]

According to Senator Jack -- The bad suit and tie is the norm.

That's not a rebellion.

We are pissing off the guy in jeans and the guy in the bad looking suit and tie because no matter how much money they spend they still can't look as well put together.

Not Snobbery--- FACT!