Rifle Firing Position

[deanglen]

I know this is a picture of Span-Am War era troops, but it might apply to the US Military of following eras, perhaps even WWII. Somebody I showed these pictures to wondered why they were holding the rifle with their left hands under the rifle so close to the trigger area, standing or kneeling. Since I don't have a rifle or training in firing one, it got me wondering as to why they did hold it as they did. Is it an old fashioned style? It is a poor way to hold the rifle, or a superior style? Is there a name for that postion beyond "kneeling" and aiming. I figured some of our military guys could share what they know about this. Thanks for your interest!

dean

 

[Feraud]

I believe the soldiers in the photo are demonstrating the three firing positions: standing, kneeling, and prone. The hand held closer to the received provides better stablilty than extending your arm towards the barrel.

I am sure our members will give a much better explanation with historical reference!

 

[deanglen]

I believe the soldiers in the photo are demonstrating the three firing positions: standing, kneeling, and prone. The hand held closer to the received provides better stablilty than extending your arm towards the barrel.

I am sure our members will give a much better explanation with historical reference!

Thanks, Feraud!

dean

 

[Harp]

Bolo

Basic marksmanship aside, a rifleman will develop a shooting style
most comfortable to himself and his particular weapon. The present-
issue M16A1 rifle only weighs 6.5lbs unloaded, and the Spanish-American
War's Krag-Jorgensen, WWI's famed Springfield '03, and the later M-1 from WWII, were considerably heavier; also, bolt action rifles as shown in the inset photo required manual round chambering/shell ejection. So balance and heft factor ease and comfort, whether standing, kneeling, or prone.
And the kneeling position is the kneeling position.

 

[deanglen]

Basic marksmanship aside, a rifleman will develop a shooting style
most comfortable to himself and his particular weapon.
The present-issue M16A1 rifle only weighs 6.5lbs unloaded,
and the Spanish-American War's Krag-Jorgensen, WWI's famed
Springfield '03, and the later M-1 from WWII, were considerably
heavier; also, bolt action rifles as shown in the inset photo
required manual round chambering/shell ejection. So balance and heft
factor ease and comfort, whether standing, kneeling, or prone.
And the kneeling position is the kneeling position.

Then, is this still taught for the standing position? Thanks for your response, Harp!

dean

 

[Harp]

Standing

The basic standing shooting position is staple curriculum,
but then there's the "Tennessee windage/Kentucky elevation"
open sight zero....

 

[mikepara]

As you'll see. The guy nearest

the camera has his elbow on his knee and the forearm is vertical thus being solid. These are the marksmanship principles of small arms rifle fire. The 1st demonstrated by the men pictured.

The position and hold must be firm enough to support the weapon.

The weapon must point naturally at the target without any undue physical effort.

Sight alignment [aiming] must be correct.

The shot must be released and followed through without disturbing the position.

 

[drownman]

Modern warfare is rarely so static that there is enough time or purpose for such a position. If I were to stay in the same position for a longer time (without the risk of a sniper taking us down one by one), I'd use that type of arm/hand placement. I think there's more of a fatigue issue than accuracy, a rifle gets heavy after a shorter time than you'd think
Today, there are 3 factors in small arms combat: fire, movement and cover. Movement is much more important today than it was in early 20th century warfare, due to several factors (types of weaponry, range and accuracy and such). Earlier, quantity of lead in the air was better since the accuracy wasn't that good. Today, if the same still applied, every soldier would be equipped with a machinegun with autofire only. And that's not the case...

 

[tallyho]

My recollection from rifle training in the Marine Corps was in the off hand (standing) position that the left hand(supporting hand) needed to be as close to the center of grativty as possible. This also helped keep the rifle stable because your upper arm was firm against your torso. I had my rifle traing on the M-16 and we held our hand as far back on the hand guard as possible, up against the magazine housing. I have found that this also works for most other rifles when firing offhand.

 

[John in Covina]

Formal shooting positions DCM

These are the formal shooting positions still in use for Camp Perry and other DCM type Competitions. They are from the proper forms used originally by the USMC and Army. It is a bone to bone configuration for the best support and the standing is usally done with a bit of a turn at the waist to lock in back support. The competition shooting is of course not combat shooting so the formats have changed for shooting while in motion. Also the range of engagement is much closer that it once was. The USMC uses an acronym called "BRASS" I think but I can't remember the steps: Breathe, ...

DCM was the Department of Civilian Marksmanship now it has some other name, but you can get arsenal refinished M1 Garrands and other stuff from them by going thru a few steps and they have great shooting competitions.

M1 thumb!:eusa_doh:

 

[Mojave Jack]

As my Marine Corps PMI (Primary Marksmanship Instructor) used to say, "Bone support, privates! Bone support!" Bone support equals stability, and stability equals hits in the black. Having the arm back against your body also helps you to pull the rifle into your shoulder.

Here's everything you could possibly want to know about how to shoot correctly: Rifle Marksmanship

Here's a quick excerpt from the instructions for assuming a kneeling position:

"Keep the right ankle straight, with the toe of the boot in contact with the ground and curled under by the weight of the body.

Place the right portion of the buttocks on or over the right heel; contact with the heel provides more stability to the position.

Place the left foot forward to a point that allows the shin to be vertically straight. For the shin to be vertical, the heel should be directly under the knee. The left foot must be flat on the ground since it will be supporting the majority of the weight.

Place the flat portion of the back of upper left arm, just above the elbow, on the left knee so it is in firm contact with the flat surface formed on top of the bent knee. The point of the left elbow will extend just slightly past the left knee. The upper portion of the triceps or the armpit will not rest on the knee.

Lean slightly forward into the sling for support.

Grasp the rifle butt with the right hand and place the rifle butt into the right shoulder pocket.

Grasp the pistol grip with the right hand.

Bend the right elbow to provide the least muscular tension possible and lower it to a natural position.

Lower the head and place the cheek firmly against the stock to allow the aiming eye to look through the rear sight aperture.

Move the left hand to a location under the handguard, which provides maximum bone support and stability for the weapon."

Those soldiers are in textbook kneeling positions! These instructions are for the M-16, of course, but the technique is the same.

 

[deanglen]

So the standing position illustrated is corrrect. Arm under the rifle is tight to the body with slight back lean. Even so, tactics have changed and aimed fire is sacrificed for volume of fire, and weapons have been designed accordingly. Actually, I'll bet this could be a sniper school class in modern terms. I know they had snipers back then. I'm sure I've read though, that not every segment of the US Military was in love with aimed long distance shooting, that it was a see-saw between 'volley and charge versus 'pick'em off way faraway'. This stuff fascinates me as much as hats. Anyone else feel that way? maybe we need a thread on it, though it probably stretches the Lounge culture a bit. Notwithstanding that, military folks in bars relating their knowledge and experience certainly is a classic cultural phenomonen.

dean

 

[Feraud]

This stuff fascinates me as much as hats. Anyone else feel that way? maybe we need a thread on it, though it probably stretches the Lounge culture a bit. Notwithstanding that, military folks in bars relating their knowledge and experience certainly is a classic cultural phenomonen.

dean

I love this stuff too.
I believe a Golden Era related thread about firearms: their use, military tactics, evolution, aesthetics, etc. is long overdue.

 

[carebear]

So the standing position illustrated is correct. Arm under the rifle is tight to the body with slight back lean.

If you are shooting on a known distance match on a range that is the textbook offhand. Marksmanship fundamentals is taught using formal positions, actual combat positions will be catch as catch can.

BRASS - breathe, relax, aim, stop (breathing), squeeze (the trigger)

Classic shooting positions - prone, sitting, kneeling (high and low) and offhand (standing). For a match one would use the rifle sling around the upper (left for a rightie) arm to give the rifle greater stability.


These guys are probably straight infantry, not snipers. A small professional army has more time to spend on marksmanship than one rapidly expanding to a wartime footing. Also, excellent rifle marksmanship was a decisive factor on the battlefield until machine guns and improved artillery proved themselves to be the real killers around the turn of the century. Why bother trying to hit a man at 400 yds with a single shot fired over open sights if you can call in HE shells or a burst of machinegun fire. 2 guys running an MG or 5 guys humping arty shells is a much more efficient use of manpower to kill than those same guys with rifles.

As we're now going to more precision in warfare, especially in built up areas, this long-held "truth" is being reexamined some.

 

[Lord Jagged]

Surpised but interested

It seems a most unnatural and difficult firing position to me. A little more spread between trigger hand and supporting hand would have provided better support I would have thought. I have to confess to being a clay pigeon fiend and maybe the wider spread we use is only suited to moving target practice?

 

[Twitch]

There are variations an all positions but I sorta liked a sitting position knees drawn up, elbow on each knee and instead of aiming in front as in the picture you aim 90¬? from front. Good support. Kinda comfy as I recall all those decades ago....

 

[Harp]

?

This stuff fascinates me....

dean[/QUOTE]

Why?

 

[deanglen]

This stuff fascinates me....

dean

Why?[/QUOTE]

Because I have always been fascinated with military history, hardware, and such since I began reading Anerican Heritage Series books andwatching Combat, Twelve O'Clock High, and other military history programs from childhood on up. Do think it's:
a) inappropriate, considering my calling, b) indicative of repressed violent tendencies, or c) other? Perhaps a PM would be in order to give you a more in depth response.

dean

 

[deanglen]

If you are shooting on a known distance match on a range that is the textbook offhand. Marksmanship fundamentals is taught using formal positions, actual combat positions will be catch as catch can.

BRASS - breathe, relax, aim, stop (breathing), squeeze (the trigger)

Classic shooting positions - prone, sitting, kneeling (high and low) and offhand (standing). For a match one would use the rifle sling around the upper (left for a rightie) arm to give the rifle greater stability.


These guys are probably straight infantry, not snipers. A small professional army has more time to spend on marksmanship than one rapidly expanding to a wartime footing. Also, excellent rifle marksmanship was a decisive factor on the battlefield until machine guns and improved artillery proved themselves to be the real killers around the turn of the century. Why bother trying to hit a man at 400 yds with a single shot fired over open sights if you can call in HE shells or a burst of machinegun fire. 2 guys running an MG or 5 guys humping arty shells is a much more efficient use of manpower to kill than those same guys with rifles.

As we're now going to more precision in warfare, especially in built up areas, this long-held "truth" is being reexamined some.

Thank you, Carebear. I see your point.

dean

 

[deanglen]

It seems a most unnatural and difficult firing position to me. A little more spread between trigger hand and supporting hand would have provided better support I would have thought. I have to confess to being a clay pigeon fiend and maybe the wider spread we use is only suited to moving target practice?

This is why I posed the question, LJ, because I agree, even plastic toy infantry soldiers standing and firing have more space between the trigger hand and support hand, in fact this picture, from the same time period shows that some of them with wider hand placement. But the first guy has them closer. I just was curious about the actual correctness of the close hand placement, or if it was just a style of that time.