You can’t judge a book by looking at the cover…

Discussion in 'Outerwear' started by 58panheadfan, Jun 20, 2019.

  1. Guppy

    Guppy Call Me a Cab

    Messages:
    2,577
    Location:
    Cleveland, OH
    I am intrigued by the new model from ELMC. I'd like to see one in person, try it on, and maybe buy it. I feel the same way about the Freewheelers Mulholland. They're similar looking enough, but not the same. If I owned both, I'd certainly pick the one that fit better.

    I think it's ridiculous to compare the two on the basis of a couple of photos. Even two examples of the same jacket can differ in subtle, yet substantial ways, just based on the natural differences in the leather, and variations in how they measured and differences of a fraction of an inch can make all the difference.

    Hell, even the same jacket can look very different depending just on how it's photographed.

    You can have an opinion, and you can like what you like. I'm just glad there's options.
     
  2. Ernest P Shackleton

    Ernest P Shackleton Practically Family

    Messages:
    876
    Location:
    Midwest
     
  3. 58panheadfan

    58panheadfan A-List Customer

    Messages:
    358
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Of course, a lot is in everyone's mind and even the most expensive is not always the best, it is often driven by the market and demand. Nevertheless, there are also significant differences in quality. It just makes a difference if a T-shirt is made e.g. by Zimbabwe Cotton. I am with you it is everyone's own thing to decide whether quality/price ratio is right or not ...
     
  4. 58panheadfan

    58panheadfan A-List Customer

    Messages:
    358
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Of course, the main point of a quality leather jacket is the fit, not only to know the "best" leather on the market has been used and the fit is shit ...
     
  5. red devil

    red devil One Too Many

    Messages:
    1,484
    Location:
    London
    The concept is pretty simple really: sometimes a higher price is due to materials and labour, sometimes due to the brand value or the seller trying to get away with as high price as he can sell his wares.

    Figuring what is worth what in actuality is much harder.

    In this case, it is pretty evident that the FW jacket costs more to produce but which company is making better margins? No idea
     
  6. 58panheadfan

    58panheadfan A-List Customer

    Messages:
    358
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Basically, it should be noted that in this niche market, the really large* margins fail. A big difference between the Japanese and the Western mentality is in Japan, the satisfaction of the customer comes before the actual profit. Of course a company like FW wants to be profitable, but not at any price ...

    * The profit margin in this niche market is about 50% gross, not to compare with, for example RL where making $ 3 for a polo shirt and the selling price where I come from is $ 169 :(
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  7. nick123

    nick123 I'll Lock Up

    Messages:
    5,584
    Location:
    California
    I'm not so sure. While the not judging a book by its cover certainly applies to people and Bo Diddly was onto something, I think, having owned jackets by nearly all of the prime makers (sans many of the Japanese guys we are speaking of), if you've owned a few, in combination with hours of study, internet pictures DO in fact reveal a lot about the jacket's quality. Also, taking into account a maker's reputation, and even something as simple as looking at product descriptions, or whether or not a company's personnel are passionate about what they do and don't give you the run around.

    So far, I think it's an exceptionally rare occurrence to order something seemingly cheap and instead being blown away by its quality on arrival. Likewise, ordering something seemingly of exemplary quality rarely produces a dud (though this may be more common with failing zippers, missed stitches, etc etc).

    What the not judging a book really applies to, IMO, is leather samples.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
    El Marro and Monitor like this.
  8. Lebowski

    Lebowski Practically Family

    Messages:
    695
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Monitor

    Monitor I'll Lock Up

    Messages:
    8,539
    To clarify, what I meant by it all being in the mind is that you will buy a jacket that you like. If I liked FC more than ELMC, I'd never buy an ELMC just because someone says it's "better", without providing any evidence for the claim.

    Or at least I hope you will?
     
    58panheadfan likes this.
  10. 58panheadfan

    58panheadfan A-List Customer

    Messages:
    358
    Location:
    Switzerland
    As the title says, the main thing is the cover ... I chosen this title because the two mentioned leather jackets look very similar externally, but they differ significantly in "content". If you now deal with hours of study as you mentioned and look around the internet, product descriptions etc., you are already dealing with the content and not with the cover ;)
     
  11. 58panheadfan

    58panheadfan A-List Customer

    Messages:
    358
    Location:
    Switzerland
    If someone isn't label-mad, the answer should be a clearly "no" ;)
     
    Monitor likes this.
  12. red devil

    red devil One Too Many

    Messages:
    1,484
    Location:
    London
    Pretty much the reason I avoid fashion brands as much as possible
     
  13. 58panheadfan

    58panheadfan A-List Customer

    Messages:
    358
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Me too... strictly.
     
  14. Lebowski

    Lebowski Practically Family

    Messages:
    695
    Haven't got the point of this thread.
    Mulholland is nice? Yep, very nice.
    Highway Star is nice? I think, yes, it looks nice too.
    Do they both look quite similar? Apparently, 'cause both are inspired by CHP from 40s.
    Leathers are very different though, but still both look very nice.
    I like both.
    So, what's supposed to be "judged" over here? Seems pointless TBH.
     
    Carlos840 and Superfluous like this.
  15. 58panheadfan

    58panheadfan A-List Customer

    Messages:
    358
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Life is not always easy, but you have got it :) ... it's all about the leather.
     
  16. Monitor

    Monitor I'll Lock Up

    Messages:
    8,539
    Unrelated, I don't know when was it that they started putting pictures on novel covers but it's one of the dumbest idea mankind has come up with.
     
    58panheadfan likes this.
  17. ProteinNerd

    ProteinNerd My Mail is Forwarded Here

    Messages:
    3,621
    Location:
    Sydney
    Yeah I'm still confused.

    Both share the same (or very similar) inspiration to the look.
    Both are made to a very high quality
    Both are made with very nice leather
    Both cost a significant amount of money with the ELMC being about 30% less from what I can find.

    While some might say the FW uses "better" leather, how is that even measured? Does Shinki HH provide a better wearing experience somehow? Protect you from the elements better?
    I have both types of leather and like them both but when I'm wearing them, I can't really tell the difference.
    You could argue the ELMC is better as it represents better value for money?

    At these levels I believe its purely subjective and the price is more driven by marketing and positioning in the marketplace than cost of production.

    Both look great, I'm sure anyone would be happy with either.....at these levels, its an emotional purchase. Buy the one that makes you happy, not because you think its "better".
     
    Lebowski, El Marro, Maitiu and 7 others like this.
  18. Monitor

    Monitor I'll Lock Up

    Messages:
    8,539
    ^ This ^
     
  19. Seb Lucas

    Seb Lucas I'll Lock Up

    Messages:
    5,953
    Location:
    Australia
    It's threads like this that get me thinking that leather jackets and brand loyalty can be taken way too seriously.

    I'm still feeling slightly dumb for spending over $1000 on an Aero half-belt - which is a lovely thing but is not giving me any more pleasure, to be honest, than a $140 used Brooks.

    There is a type of collecting of consumer goods that transcends the item itself and settles into a type of fetishism or coveting of brand and manufacturing that seems like a parody.
     
  20. 58panheadfan

    58panheadfan A-List Customer

    Messages:
    358
    Location:
    Switzerland
    It is not the question of what is "better" but rather how the extra cost justified and I tried to explain it in the other thread: https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/new-elmc-jacket-highway-star®️-horsehide.97637/

    There is a good reason why the jackets from FW as well as from RMC and FW cost considerably more than hh jackets from other manufacturers. One of the mainly reason: the costs of the leather in the tanning process... in simple words, the Italian leather need weeks, those of shinki months in the tanning bark and as known: "time is money". Therefore the raw leathers used by FW and other premium industrial consumers in Japan are "ferraris". Of course it is everyone's own taste if you like one in red, blue, yellow etc. (means finish on each jacket made by each manufacturer differently, e.g. cut, color, top coat finish, lining, hardware, stitchwork-equipment and more), but a ferrari remains a ferrari... also there is a reason why aluminum body types fetches $$$ prices inside the ferrari family. There is nothing like a good base... ;)

    Edit: If I remember correctly, David Himel has tried to explain this fact some time ago too and fall on deaf ears... (with some people).
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.