Thoughts on leather of Schott leather jackets!

[ton312]

Thank you! That's exactly how it went and why even the freaking owner of the place wasn't aware that something was wrong with the jackets leaving the company for delivery. I'm betting you that even today, there are people who still aren't aware that their jackets are a storse.

I wouldn't know and probably wouldn't care if I did. I like the finished product. Ultimately the fit and style carry more weight for me, especially when the hide in question is so close in its physical attributes. I do understand that certain people may not share the same view. Perhaps I'm crude but I simply can't find a true, identifiable difference. People should absolutely get what they pay for though and if there was doubt about a jackets origins or genuine nature then good on Ken for righting that. Perhaps I'm just lazy or too easily satisfied...

 

[AeroFan_07]

For me being so new to "quality" leathers, the main differance I have observed between any type of horsehide & Steer or Cow hide is what you feel. I mean the feeling of "hair" still to the surface. This has been true with each Horsehide jackt I have handeled. I really like the way the most Steer or Cow leather breaks in, still sort of fguring out how Horsehide will do....

 

[BobJ]

the forbidden rituals that summoned these monstrosities into physical plane of existence.

Brilliant prose - bordering on occult poetry.

 

[Seb Lucas]

David Hack of US Wings used to say that Steer was just treated cowhide too. Just remembered that many Wings jackets are made by Schott.

When I contacted Aero about the way they told the difference between horse and steer years back Holly said it was the weight. Their horse is 3oz which is thinner than the steer they used even though their previous manager was selling 4oz 'horsehide'. Of course there was much more to it than this.

 

[Edward]

Hmm..seems like the word 'cow' is often used pretty generically in some circles ( look at those 'cows' out in the field ). However, to a midwestern boy (me) a cow is actually a grown heifer of which both are females. A 'steer' is a ball-less bull and a 'bull' hasn't been neutered. Of course there is a true difference in all three hides. From smooth and more spongy cow to a crisper tougher hand grained steer to more marbled heavier grained bull hide. Never heard of the idea that steer was just cow with a protective coating. News to me.

That would have been my understanding too. The heaviest vintaqge leather jackets I'm aware of are all German bullhide mcs. Serious stuff, that really is like armour. Interesting, isn't it, that the gender issue just doesn't seem to matter with horsehide (of course, I'm not aware of horses being neutered, typically, either). I presume with horses it has less impact, though of course they also, typically, have very different lives than the average cow / bull, breeding stock aside, which places less emphasis on their gender....

Interestingly, where I'm from they call a 'steer' a 'bullock'!

'It's a bit confusing 'cause people would naturally assume that Steerhide branded jackets would be made from a bull hide'
******************************************************

Why would people naturally assume that? Steer hide is not bull hide. Both have different properties ( I suppose somewhat due to hormones ). Just notice the obvious difference between steer hide & bull hide cowboy boots.
I would assume that steer hide should actually be steer hide no matter how some might try and spin it.
The difference in cow hide, steer hide, and bull hide should be readily much more apparent by most makers than the Storse debacle, unless someone is trying to feed everyone a bunch of bull again.

I think the reality is that most buyers just don't care that much. Let's not forget that, unlike the many niche brands we also love round here, Schott is very much a mainstream brand, largely selling to city folks, many of whom will never have even seen a cow/steer/bull in real life, and who probably don't care about the properties of hides the way we do. I completely agree with you, of course, in that I'd much rather see accurate labelling in that front, but I just suspect that most of Schott's market don't care, so it's not an issue to them. Seems they do just use it as a label - in, I guess, the same way that to a lot of us 'cordovan' is the colour of a particular Horween hide, rather than a specific (part of the) animal's hide.

Storse galloping out the door had me chuckle. Anyway, if I remember correctly (and I may be wrong), I believe even Ken himself stated that he hasn't been aware of what the previous management was up to and how the only thing that alerted them was the stampede of returned jackets, from people who would insist that their jackets were weird because random parts and panels of a jacket would develop grain and generally age at a different rate and in a different manner. It was only then that Aero learned of the forbidden rituals that summoned these monstrosities into physical plane of existence.

Let's steer (hah!) away from opening that old can of worms over again.... but suffice it to say that the original evidence of the storse hoo hah was uncovered in the forensic accounting after the Mark Moye issue, and showed up when the figures for numbers of horse hidesw bought didn't tally with the number of horse jackets sold.

With time, horsehide and steerhide will begin to age differently... After even more time, they're both back at looking the same, leaving us with only speculations and wild guessing. And science. And Andy Falzon know knows the secret arts of being able to tell leathers apart.

Gary Eastman's DNA work on A2s certainly put the cat among the pigeons when he concluded that a huge proportion of the much -revered 'horse' A2s were actually cow/steer or some variety.

I've had this conversation with Gail on Schott's forum more than once. There cowhide is called that because it does not have a protective coating. There steerhide is called that because it does have a protective coating. That's all there is to it. They have no idea what sex the hide is when it gets to the cutting table. In my 641 the tag says GENUINE STEERHIDE LEATHER...dosen't mean it is. There HH could be either sex also....they have no idea, nor do they care..........

That seems to be the deal with Schott, yes. Eiher way, I'm very happy with the 618 I picked up a couple of years ago. My honest conclusion is that it's not as nice a the Aero equivalent I've owned (in steer), but certainly still a really nice jacket, and great as a used bargain especially. I'm considering trying out a 118 too if I stumble across the right one. I long had the idea that the 618 was a 'superior', 'vintage style' jacket, but now I know it's just the same pattern, labelled one size up and the only difference is a top coat on the leather, I might well give a used 118 a go....

Brilliant prose - bordering on occult poetry.

Just don't read it out loud lest you accidentally awaken our slumbering dark lord Cthulu!

 

[Phillips88]

Okay here is the thing that's got me. We've all heard different things from Schott about steer, cow, and horse. It seems to be a pretty written conclusion that the term "cow" and "steer" are just terminology for Schott to distinguish non-coated and coated leather. Unlike with us on TFL who know the actual difference between "cow", "steer", "bull", etc..

One thing is for sure that iv heard multiple times by Gail, Jerri, and many others at Schott. Although the naked cowhide is untreated like the steer, it is a MUCH MORE QUALITY HIDE, more supple, with little to no imperfections in the skin primary because its a naked hide. That's pretty much common sense due to the 118 (naked cow) is $760.00 and the 618 (steer) is only $725.00. If it was the same hide, wouldn't the price be flipped sense their is less to be done to the naked hide? Think about it? I'm sure that coating isn't cheap and easy to apply?

I personally would prefer the better grade hide myself. It would be nice if you could get the A grade unfinished cowhide and have the added coating applied for protection.

Anyone ever heard of this being an option, of course I know this is something that's done at the tannery before it ever makes it to Schott but has anyone ever heard of a leather specialist adding a protective coating to an unfinished jacket after the fact? Like after the jacket has been put together?

 

[Monitor]

I understand what you mean but it's the finish that determines how soft and pliable the hide will be. The whole point behind the Naked Cowhide is that it's soft and subtle and that it doesn't require breaking in. It there for the customers who want a comfortable jacket from the get go. All hide starts out untreated of course, the protective finish is added later on during the tanning process and it's what hardens (lol) the leather. Applying that coating stuff to the hides intended for the Naked cow would just turn it into Steer, which would defeat the purpose.

Schott won't mess with the tanning process, I can tell you that much.

 

[Phillips88]

I understand what you mean but it's the finish that determines how soft and pliable the hide will be. The whole point behind the Naked Cowhide is that it's soft and subtle and that it doesn't require breaking in. It there for the customers who want a comfortable jacket from the get go. All hide starts out untreated of course, the protective finish is added later on during the tanning process and it's what hardens (lol) the leather. Applying that coating stuff to the hides intended for the Naked cow would just turn it into Steer, which would defeat the purpose.

Schott won't mess with the tanning process, I can tell you that much.

I was actually talking to Gail one time on the phone and she told me that their naked cowhide was a better quality hide than the steer. Like I'm sure its probably not a lot but if the naked cow is A+, the steer being an A- LOL. I cant ever get them to say for sure in an email (of course you know they would never admit Schott makes a inferior product in writing, sure Jason Schott would LOVE to see that) but she was pretty adamant on the phone.

Not that I ever would but in the event I ever wanted to add a protective finish to my naked cowhide, have you ever heard of this being outsourced by a leather tannery or leather maker. I highly doubt they make such a thing we could actually apply ourselves at home. I'm sure its not that easy. I just know there are a lot of leather jacket restore companies online that I'm sure restore the finish after they do redyes and such? Right?

I know it would be defeating the purpose and turning it into steer but if I ever changed my mind and regret I would've got the steer, could it be done wonder?

 

[Monitor]

Yeah, Naked Cowhide is their premium. They are very open about this and have stated so many times in the past. What you said earlier, only the cleanest, most pristine hides make it into the Naked Cow jackets while the slightly less quality hide is used for Steer.

Sure, you could have the jacket redyed and perhaps something added to it later on but... I don't think it's a good idea. Don't worry, man, Schott cow is pretty indestructible. It's a super tough hide, if you're concerned about the elements, don't be. That stuff's made to last for decades. Slap some Pecard on it once every few years and that's it.

 

[Phillips88]

Yeah, Naked Cowhide is their premium. They are very open about this and have stated so many times in the past. What you said earlier, only the cleanest, most pristine hides make it into the Naked Cow jackets while the slightly less quality hide is used for Steer.

Sure, you could have the jacket redyed and perhaps something added to it later on but... I don't think it's a good idea. Don't worry, man, Schott cow is pretty indestructible. It's a super tough hide, if you're concerned about the elements, don't be. That stuff's made to last for decades. Slap some Pecard on it once every few years and that's it.

I'm gonna have to get me some Pecards, no doubt! I'll order some asap!

That's the only thing that kind of concerns me is the element but mostly the rain. Where I ride though out the year as much as I can. I never can seem to dodge the rain. In the MC riding months of east Tenneesse, its not IF but WHEN your going to get wet on the bike lol

Really the first main reason I picked up the 618HH

 

[Carlos840]

Okay here is the thing that's got me. We've all heard different things from Schott about steer, cow, and horse. It seems to be a pretty written conclusion that the term "cow" and "steer" are just terminology for Schott to distinguish non-coated and coated leather. Unlike with us on TFL who know the actual difference between "cow", "steer", "bull", etc..

One thing is for sure that iv heard multiple times by Gail, Jerri, and many others at Schott. Although the naked cowhide is untreated like the steer, it is a MUCH MORE QUALITY HIDE, more supple, with little to no imperfections in the skin primary because its a naked hide. That's pretty much common sense due to the 118 (naked cow) is $760.00 and the 618 (steer) is only $725.00. If it was the same hide, wouldn't the price be flipped sense their is less to be done to the naked hide? Think about it? I'm sure that coating isn't cheap and easy to apply?

I personally would prefer the better grade hide myself. It would be nice if you could get the A grade unfinished cowhide and have the added coating applied for protection.

Anyone ever heard of this being an option, of course I know this is something that's done at the tannery before it ever makes it to Schott but has anyone ever heard of a leather specialist adding a protective coating to an unfinished jacket after the fact? Like after the jacket has been put together?

I think you are thinking about this too much.
It's all name calling and marketing... If the Steer was the worst of the two, why would it be called "Deluxe Steerhide" and the Cowhide is only called "Naked Cowhide"?
I own a Schott 641, was able to compare it to the 141 before i bought it, and other than the fact that the steerhide is top coated and much more waterproof they both looked pretty much exactly the same.
They have the same thickness, same hand, same rigidity, are both chrome tanned, it's just that one is top coated, the other isn't. I wouldn't be surprised if both hides started in the same pile at the factory and were just treated differently.
To me the finish of the steerhide felt much nicer than the naked cowhide and the decision to go for steer was a no brainer.

To call naked cowhide vastly superior, or the steerhide inferior is just wrong, and to go through the trouble of buying naked cowhide to then top coat it is crazy, there is nothing wrong with the steer!
If you want your jacket to age super fast and want instant gratification get the naked cowhide, if you want a waterproof jacket that will age slowly get the steer.

Here is my 4 years old 641, It doesn't have any scares, or any imperfections... It was used on the bike a lot, in the sun, in the rain, never treated. All i do to is clean the bug guts with a non scratch sponge and some Lexol leather cleaner.

 

[Phillips88]

I think you are thinking about this too much.
It's all name calling and marketing... If the Steer was the worst of the two, why would it be called "Deluxe Steerhide" and the Cowhide is only called "Naked Cowhide"?
I own a Schott 641, was able to compare it to the 141 before i bought it, and other than the fact that the steerhide is top coated and much more waterproof they both looked pretty much exactly the same.
They have the same thickness, same hand, same rigidity, are both chrome tanned, it's just that one is top coated, the other isn't. I wouldn't be surprised if both hides started in the same pile at the factory and were just treated differently.
To me the finish of the steerhide felt much nicer than the naked cowhide and the decision to go for steer was a no brainer.

To call naked cowhide vastly superior, or the steerhide inferior is just wrong, and to go through the trouble of buying naked cowhide to then top coat it is crazy, there is nothing wrong with the steer!
If you want your jacket to age super fast and want instant gratification get the naked cowhide, if you want a waterproof jacket that will age slowly get the steer.

Here is my 4 years old 641, It doesn't have any scares, or any imperfections... It was used on the bike a lot, in the sun, in the rain, never treated. All i do to is clean the bug guts with a non scratch sponge and some Lexol leather cleaner.

I'm just repeating what was said by the nice people of Schott. I never said the steer was an inferior hide nor am I going to try to add a top coat to my jacket. Just curious to why the naked cowhide is $20 dollars more if their the same jacket same hide? If its so "deluxe" with the better coating and protection, than why isn't it the most expensive out of the two??

 

[Monitor]

I think that has been answered already.

The Naked cow is slightly more pricey 'cause it's the cleanest hide, with zero scaring, bite-marks, whatever. It's something that Gale has clearly stated this many times. Steerhide, or the untreated cowhide, may or may not have had an occasional "imperfection" which isn't visible anyhow due to the protective finish. That's all. Naked cow is a bit more expensive 'cause the selection process. That's all there is to it.

But what Carlos said, they're really, really, really the same hide with the only difference being the protective finish.

And in the end, we just know what we're being told so it's just really completely and utterly pointless to even think about it.

 

[Phillips88]

I think that has been answered already.

The Naked cow is slightly more pricey 'cause it's the cleanest hide, with zero scaring, bite-marks, whatever. It's something that Gale has clearly stated this many times. Steerhide, or the untreated cowhide, may or may not have had an occasional "imperfection" which isn't visible anyhow due to the protective finish. That's all. Naked cow is a bit more expensive 'cause the selection process. That's all there is to it.

But what Carlos said, they're really, really, really the same hide with the only difference being the protective finish.

And in the end, we just know what we're being told so it's just really completely and utterly pointless to even think about it.

Well said Monitor! Agreed! Back to my A+ A- comment. Like you said, maybe just a closer eye on the leather when it's assembled is all, little cleaner etc.

I'm still curious about that coating that's added to the steer. Going back to Gail saying countless times "Do NOT clog the pores of the naked leather!" then why do they coat the steer? Is this process a extenuating circumstance or a coating that doesn't effect the pores? I don't see how this is so if it's made to protect the leather from elements? Isn't that what it does? Clog the pores from weather and such?

 

[nick123]

Well said Monitor! Agreed! Back to my A+ A- comment. Like you said, maybe just a closer eye on the leather when it's assembled is all, little cleaner etc.

I'm still curious about that coating that's added to the steer. Going back to Gail saying countless times "Do NOT clog the pores of the naked leather!" then why do they coat the steer? Is this process a extenuating circumstance or a coating that doesn't effect the pores? I don't see how this is so if it's made to protect the leather from elements? Isn't that what it does? Clog the pores from weather and such?

Confusing huh? Leather must be able to breathe, leather should be conditioned regularly, etc etc. I think there's a point where one must throw the towel in with leather technicalities and just have faith the leather will be fine. Enjoy the jacket without worry. Be able to prepare for the worst in the rare case it shrinks or turns into dust or gets stolen but expect the best in terms of longevity.

 

[Monitor]

Exactly. It just... doesn't matter. It works. The jacket works. That's all you need to know. It's thinking about it that really does harm to the Perfecto. It withers away. Leather starts cracking, hardware falling off... I've seen it with my own eyes.

 

[Phillips88]

Confusing huh? Leather must be able to breathe, leather should be conditioned regularly, etc etc. I think there's a point where one must throw the towel in with leather technicalities and just have faith the leather will be fine. Enjoy the jacket without worry. Be able to prepare for the worst in the rare case it shrinks or turns into dust or gets stolen but expect the best in terms of longevity.

Exactly. It just... doesn't matter. It works. The jacket works. That's all you need to know. It's thinking about it that really does harm to the Perfecto. It withers away. Leather starts cracking, hardware falling off... I've seen it with my own eyes.

Very Confusing Nick. That's a good point no doubt. I'm a thorough believer in a good leather conditioner. Here is some more confusion, Schott has always said "stay away from petroleum/silicon based products that will clog the pores of the unfinished hide and cause deterioration'. Well I just ordered a good tub of Pecards thanks to Monitors excellent advice. Pecard completely disband what Schott has said about this.

Right on the description of the original "Pecard Classic Leather Dressing" it even says "Use on all Oil, Vegetable, Chromium & Naturally Tanned or naked leather"

Then under the description it says:

"One of our most popular products. A neutral colored blended paste that cleans, conditions, preserves and weatherproofs all smooth oil-tanned leather to keep it supple, strong and beautiful. This specialty formulated blend of waxes and USP Grade Petroleum products help repel dirt and water from entering the leather where they cause the greatest damage. The oils in the dressing lubricate and plump up the fibers so that they can move smoothly against each other without binding and abrading. Our products contain NO animal fat or tallow, mink oil, lanolin, or neatsfoot oil. May darken leather a shade but not significantly. Not recommended for Suede or NuBuck leather."

Then at the bottom of the page it says:

Please make sure the item is oil tanned and not coated leather. This dressing will not penetrate coated leather.

So does this mean when we put this on a coated/protected jacket, its doing nothing!? I'm with you boys.....I'm throwing in the towel, use my Pecards occasionally and just gonna wear the damn thing! lol

 

[BobJ]

Very Confusing Nick. That's a good point no doubt. I'm a thorough believer in a good leather conditioner. Here is some more confusion, Schott has always said "stay away from petroleum/silicon based products that will clog the pores of the unfinished hide and cause deterioration'. Well I just ordered a good tub of Pecards thanks to Monitors excellent advice. Pecard completely disband what Schott has said about this.

Right on the description of the original "Pecard Classic Leather Dressing" it even says "Use on all Oil, Vegetable, Chromium & Naturally Tanned or naked leather"

Then under the description it says:

"One of our most popular products. A neutral colored blended paste that cleans, conditions, preserves and weatherproofs all smooth oil-tanned leather to keep it supple, strong and beautiful. This specialty formulated blend of waxes and USP Grade Petroleum products help repel dirt and water from entering the leather where they cause the greatest damage. The oils in the dressing lubricate and plump up the fibers so that they can move smoothly against each other without binding and abrading. Our products contain NO animal fat or tallow, mink oil, lanolin, or neatsfoot oil. May darken leather a shade but not significantly. Not recommended for Suede or NuBuck leather."

Then at the bottom of the page it says:

Please make sure the item is oil tanned and not coated leather. This dressing will not penetrate coated leather.

So does this mean when we put this on a coated/protected jacket, its doing nothing!? I'm with you boys.....I'm throwing in the towel, use my Pecards occasionally and just gonna wear the damn thing! lol

Pecards makes a different product for leathers with a topcoat. Their Classic Leather Dressing will not penetrate the topcoat to soak into the leather. It will just stay on the surface and give your jacket a greasy feel. They have another product for topcoated leathers - it's called Leather Care Lotion. It is wax and petroleum free and is formulated to penetrate the topcoat and soak into the leather. I have both products sitting right here next to me as I am typing.

Also, there ARE products you can buy, that will put a "topcoat" on your leather, and waterproof it. It is true that your jacket will not breathe then, and it will definitely change the look of it. It might ruin it... it would be a risky experiment.

 

[Phillips88]

Pecards makes a different product for leathers with a topcoat. Their Classic Leather Dressing will not penetrate the topcoat to soak into the leather. It will just stay on the surface and give your jacket a greasy feel. They have another product for topcoated leathers - it's called Leather Care Lotion. It is wax and petroleum free and is formulated to penetrate the topcoat and soak into the leather. I have both products sitting right here next to me as I am typing.

Also, there ARE products you can buy, that will put a "topcoat" on your leather, and waterproof it. It is true that your jacket will not breathe then, and it will definitely change the look of it. It might ruin it... it would be a risky experiment.

Okay well good, at least I bought the right conditioner for my leather.

So what's the "Topcoat" that comes on the steer that DOES let the leather breathe and WONT hurt the the leather???

 

[Seb Lucas]

Just buy the one you like the look of and don't over-think it. You don't really need leather conditioners - they might be useful 20 years down the track if you've been in the sun a lot. I've owned 50 plus leather jackets over three decades and my view is unless you buy something poor the hide doesn't make much difference other then weight. All leather jackets end up looking great if you wear them a lot and hang onto them more than 18 months.

My favorite Brooks cafe racer is made of thin, uninspired chrome tanned steerhide that many folks here wouldn't look twice at if it were on a new jacket. But the pattern is cool and like most 40 year old leather that has wear on it, it looks amazing. The lesson: even thin, chrome tanned uninspired new leather does last and it develops extraordinary patina. As it happens I still have my first leather jacket from the mid 1980's). It has never been conditioned. It looks absolutely fine.