Please Explain High End Selvedge Jeans to Me

simonc said:

I have brought and owned nearly every kind of vintage style jean and today I am currently wearing Freddies of Pinewood 1940's style jean. They are made in Turkey like the LVC 501's but from a slubbier slightly heavier 13.5 oz denim, the cut is super full in the leg with a great drop, a high waist, suspender buttons. They are very affordable right now, I got them for £35, yes they said they had some issue with a crease inside the leg (???) mine were perfect. But I snapped them up. I might get another pair today. They are the perfect summer jean, loose with a great 40's look. They are super really no complaints. You will never look better bombing down to the shops for £35. Go for it. http://www.freddiesofpinewood.co.uk/product/122-sale-!-men's-1940's-jeans

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Tell me about it. I really don't need a third pair, but it's hard to resist at that price.... 13.75, eh? Interesting.... I think thst makes them the same as Prison Blues, yet mine felt much better.

schitzo said:

The thing you have to work out is your actual waist size. For me I'd wear a size 32 waist in jeans from the high street which typically translates to about 34" in actuality. With heavy denim - and I suggest you should go in hard and buy something that's at least 21oz - you want it to fit snugly from the outset as with regular wear you're gonna loosen it up a bit and gain at least an inch in the waist. So for me in the heavier stuff I can go 33/33.5. Websites like Iron heart's are good because they list all of the precise measurements for every part of the jeans. Another great place to buy from is cultism who are always happy to provide measurements and offer sizing advice.

Mine (advice) is to take your time on this to figure out your sizing requirements first and also the type of fit you're after. Then get something sanforized (in order to remove some of the guesswork re fit) before the summer is up and wear it hard over autumn and winter. The target should be to wash them for the first time after at least 6 months of hard wear, which means you're looking at Spring. Plenty of good brands to choose from so I say let fit be the main determinant.

Good luck!

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Than you for the input. I'm taking notes and I've got a lot so far! This is great!

schitzo said:

No no Griff I'm not a 'denim head 'and fyi this is the only forum I frequent! Those are my thoughts based on my experiences of the few pairs I've had. The 23oz Lees always had a little bit of extra room in the waist from new, and over time that seemed to increase. They did feel a bit tighter when they came out the wash but then after a day or two's wear they felt the same as before. That's why I'm saying what I'm saying.

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It is the same info I got from "denim-heads" when I started with dry jeans so thats why I thought it came from that group.

I guess it differs from brand to brand and it also differs what we feel is comfortable. I got my first pair too tight so the didnt fit after a wash and that sucked after a year of patina but I think getting the right info on how much they will shrink is a good plan.

Edward said:

The patina thing isn't so much my bag: I wish I could keep my Freddies looking new forever. I like the uniform, dark colour. Same end result, though - don't wash them every time they're worn, only when needed. A tiny bit of me is, once in a blue moon, tempted to think about the notion of dry cleaning, but really.... I just can't quite credit the idea of dry cleaning jeans. Mind you, different strokes for different folks.... last time I dropped into the dry cleaners to pick up some trousers I was having hemmed, there was a guy in front of me, probably mid Twenties, leaving in half a dozen very ordinary t shirts for dry cleaning. I mean, "srsly, wtf?", as the young people might have it.... [huh]

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Very cool and thanks!

All,

Thanks for this informative thread. While the comments have gotten pretty heated, I feel like I have learned a lot. I think there are a LOT of us that don't know much about Selvedge - I wouldn't consider a thread like this trolling at all.

As for me, I have worn standard department store Levi's for most of my life - 505's as a kid, and 527's and 517's over the last ten years. I have generally been unwilling to pay more than $30 - $50 for a pair of jeans because for many years it seemed that you were paying for a designer label more than paying for better quality. I ahve paid more for fir before, but I don't care for thin, fashion denim. I have always been drawn to quality, heavily built goods, so naturally workwear and western wear have always appealed to me. The tricky part is finding a good fit.

In the last few years Levi's have gone downhill in fit and quality. My old standby, the 527, was recently changed to a "Slim Boot Cut" to fit in with the current trends, and the fit was ruined. I bought some current 517's in a dark Indigo color because they are made from a tough 14.3 ounce denim (most Levi's these days are softer and between 10-12 ounce denim). I also have some boot cut Carhartt jeans that are around 14-15 ounce denim. I must say, even upgrading from 12 oz to 14 oz denim makes a noticeable difference.

I guess my point is that I have begun to appreciate good jeans, and I am beginning to investigate options like high-end Selvedge denim. Due to my own taste and shoe size, I am looking for a 9.5" or greater leg opening (19" around). I have also been operating under a few basic assumptions about Selvedge denim - perhaps someone could help me understand a little better:

1. It is my understanding that Selvedge Denim is woven in a different way than the common denim we encounter today. Is there any truth in this?

2. I was under the impression that vintage denim was made tougher or thicker than modern denim typically is. I sounds like Selvedge denim is manufactured in the way that vintage denim was made.

3. Considering that good Selvedge jeans cost about 10 times more than a typical pair of department store jeans, I assume that they will hold up much longer. I base this on the fact that the Selvedge denim tends to be thicker and is made better.

4. Since these jeans are so tough, it sounds like most people only need a few pairs - they tend to wear the m much more without washing than one would wear normal jeans.

5. Since I like boot cut jeans, are the Iron Heart 461 the only option available to me? I am also considering some of the lower priced options like Freddie's or Blue Owl - a $100 pair would be a lot easier to start with than a $320 pair (easier on the budget too). These are the options I have seen so far:

Blue Owl Straight Leg - 21 oz:
http://blueowl.us/scripts/psp/VB_Bridge3.dll?VBPROG=\bin\shop.prodt.detail&SKU=7658002

Freddies 1950's - Weight?
http://www.freddiesofpinewood.co.uk/product/36-men%27s-1950%27s-jeans

Iron Heart 461 - 21 oz
http://www.selfedge.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=71&products_id=211

Jimmer

Go to Iron Heart Forum and search for 461 thread, You'll find few good fitpics there.
Also depending on your feet, some other IH might look like bootcut...
A note of 461, quite low rise, nothing like Levis 517 which is high rise. also 461 is non-selvage, though made with same machines as IH selvedge denim

#4 You can wash premium jeans as often as you wish...it's totally up to you. They need, like any other garment, washing when they get dirty. Just wash them inside out.

Convert to selvedge

I used to be skeptical, too, of selvedge, because of the cost. The wider problem is that we are rarely exposed to the kind of high-quality clothing that we seem to like on this forum. There are plenty of high-end stores selling soft lambskin jackets that "drape beautifully" and jeans that are "comfortable" for guys and "form-fitting" for the ladies. But sometimes clothing is something that you have to enter a relationship with, even fight it a little. I have a pair of Samurai jeans (bought at Ina Men's on Spring Street) that the more I wear and wash the better they feel (I know, the denim-heads say don't wash these things--but I think it helps to shrink them a little and then expand them where they need it). I have a pair of Naked & Famous jeans--the slubbiness is wonderful to the touch. At least I think so. better than that pointless beautifully draping stuff. Except in summer.

Just wash em inside out at all times.

jimmer_5 said:

I wouldn't consider a thread like this trolling at all.

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Thankfully, it is now turning out not to be. That is not to say that it didn't start out as exactly that. Whether the OP did it deliberately, or off the top of his head, the practise of posting deliberately provocative questions, watching the responses, and then slagging off the responses ("I still think selvedge jeans are overpriced") IS regarded on most forums as trolling.

Fortunately, the subject matter is interesting enough to be continually stimulating, long after the troll has lost interest.

Now a cool thread.

I bought a pair of Freddies 40s jeans, with about 4th time of wearing the top button fell off (yeah, I'm too fat, but they're also a size big, as I like my clothes loose). Otherwise OK. Oh, bought a pair of 50s to my son, he refuses to wear them. Too thick and loose in the leg. I told him to keep them in the closet, one day maybe... Hopefully the quality is better than with my pair. Mine are reduced to real workwear, garden, chopping wood, and they will be washed without any pity, as I used to do in the early 70s with all jeans.

So now I'm led to ask:
What is the difference between RAW denim and SELVEDGE denim?

handymike said:

So now I'm led to ask:
What is the difference between RAW denim and SELVEDGE denim?

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Raw refers to the denim being unwashed / untreated during production. Selvedge refers to the weave of the fabric.

Selvedge jeans are not always raw. Raw jeans are not always selvedge.

Here are raw jeans 101 and selvedge jeans 101...

http://www.rawrdenim.com/2011/09/the-essential-raw-denim-breakdown-our-100th-article/

http://www.rawrdenim.com/2011/03/the-rundown-on-selvedge-denim-what-is-it-all-about/

Superdenim-encyclopedia

Everything you wanted to know about Denim.

majormajor said:

Thankfully, it is now turning out not to be. That is not to say that it didn't start out as exactly that. Whether the OP did it deliberately, or off the top of his head, the practise of posting deliberately provocative questions, watching the responses, and then slagging off the responses ("I still think selvedge jeans are overpriced") IS regarded on most forums as trolling.

Fortunately, the subject matter is interesting enough to be continually stimulating, long after the troll has lost interest.

Now a cool thread.

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I would hardly call OneEyeMan a troll. I can understand what you mean based of what you say, but since I know his past posts through the years I can say that you are wrong here.

Also, just because people come and explain the process that leads up to a pricetag doesnt mean the OP has to be converted. He still thinks they are overpriced, and he is right! I also think they are extremely overpriced. I think normal jeans (branded) are overpriced. But since there are no alternatives, you get what you want and the price is soemthing you have to pay - or you dont get the goods.

I think a straight leg normal dry denim about 15oz from the usual suspects should be able to get for $80 but where I live the cheapest is $160 and that is also the cheapest for a normal non-dry jean. The cheapest selvedge I know of is around $280. So then you understand that you can get the IH for $70 more, and that is a legend in a way, and since your gonna have the jeans for many many years then its not so much more expensive.........but its still crazy yes, but personally I cant even buy normal jeans anymore since they look so fake with the prewear and they are also way to flimsy, so its about the same as with cheap leather jackets, there is no turning back.

Mr Badger said:

Never had the 505s, are they akin to a Levis 1933 cut, Baron?

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Baron Kurtz said:

The ones I have are close to that, yes. A bit higher rise and slightly slimmer in the leg. Also, belt required as no suspender buttons. I will say hat they seem to alter the cut of the 505s quite a bit from year to year. Sometimes great, other times, not so much.

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Mr. Badger, here's a comparison shot of Edwin 505s from about 2003 (left) and LVC 1933 501s from around 2010. Looks like I'm ready for the National Front!

majormajor said:

Thankfully, it is now turning out not to be. That is not to say that it didn't start out as exactly that. Whether the OP did it deliberately, or off the top of his head, the practise of posting deliberately provocative questions, watching the responses, and then slagging off the responses ("I still think selvedge jeans are overpriced") IS regarded on most forums as trolling.

Fortunately, the subject matter is interesting enough to be continually stimulating, long after the troll has lost interest.

Now a cool thread.

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Again, I merely started the thread so I could learn about selvedge denim.
It's kind of offensive that more than one of you have already accused me of trolling in a round about way.
And I haven't lost interest, just haven't been posting due to comments like the above.
I honestly didn't understand what selvedge was about and why it's so expensive.
I understand now.
But it just isn't for me.
A beautiful horsehide jacket is worth the extra cost to me.
High end selvedge denim just isn't.
Some of you really need to lighten up.
Lenny

PS: Thank you Griff

Have any of you tried Gustin?

https://www.weargustin.com/store

I have 2 pairs, with another on the way. I think it's a good deal, and there are quite a few denim options there.

siddhartha said:

Have any of you tried Gustin?

https://www.weargustin.com/store

I have 2 pairs, with another on the way. I think it's a good deal, and there are quite a few denim options there.

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Very cool website. Took me a while to figure it out, but some nice deals.

GriffDeLaGriff said:

personally I cant even buy normal jeans anymore since they look so fake with the prewear and they are also way to flimsy, so its about the same as with cheap leather jackets, there is no turning back.

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Ha, how true!

Baron Kurtz said:

Mr. Badger, here's a comparison shot of Edwin 505s from about 2003 (left) and LVC 1933 501s from around 2010. Looks like I'm ready for the National Front!

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Nah, more like a busy day on the docks, chief! Didn't realise that Edwin did such a 'full cut pair', they're pretty close to LVC 1920 201s, eh? Guess I'm a way heftier build than your good self cos my 1933s fit more like straight leg jeans and the waist isn't high enuff for me, so I hardly wear 'em anymore...

OneEyeMan said:

Again, I merely started the thread so I could learn about selvedge denim.
It's kind of offensive that more than one of you have already accused me of trolling in a round about way.
And I haven't lost interest, just haven't been posting due to comments like the above.
I honestly didn't understand what selvedge was about and why it's so expensive.
I understand now.
But it just isn't for me.
A beautiful horsehide jacket is worth the extra cost to me.
High end selvedge denim just isn't.
Some of you really need to lighten up.
Lenny

PS: Thank you Griff

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OneEyeMan, it's each to their own, in the end – sadly, as I said earlier in the thread, most modern denim is made in a markedly inferior way. There was a time when almost every pair of 'regular' jeans were 'selvedge' quality denim, even if they didn't actually have the selvedge itself. Manufacturers of high-end jeans, as with many things these days, do charge 'over the odds' / 'what the market can stand' for their wares but you definitely don't have to pay it. As someone said, the regular, dark Wrangler 'cowboy' cut jeans or Levi's non-selvedge 'shrink to fit' jeans are a cost-effective alternative!

Any pics? I like the idea of those.