Double Pistols

[Mycroft]

What is the deal with movies and double pistols? I mean it looks very cool, but isn't completly impraticle? Also, where did it start in real life and Hollywood? Is it from when calvary units had a "brace" of 2 or 4 pistols on their horse? Did it start with cowboy movies? Also, may I add in what is the history of gun holsters on belts and sholders? I can not find anything on it anywhere.

 

[MJL]

What is the deal with movies and double pistols? I mean it looks very cool, but isn't completly impraticle? Also, where did it start in real life and Hollywood? Is it from when calvary units had a "brace" of 2 or 4 pistols on their horse? Did it start with cowboy movies? Also, may I add in what is the history of gun holsters on belts and sholders? I can not find anything on it anywhere.

Where to start? First in terminology. A double pistol is actually not the correct phrase for what you are asking about. In fact there were some double pistols made in the days before revolvers (prior to the 1840s) and they appear to be the handgun version of double barreled shotguns.

Carrying to sidearms most likely does date to the days before cartridge firing weapons came into use. It takes me a few minutes to load a Colt's M1860 and I have been doing it for years. Most shootists carried some form of backup weapon to fend off threats while they were occupied loading their sidearms. Large Bowie knives and small caliber handguns were popular but many just carried a duplicate if the sidearm. That became VERY heavy to carry on your waist, despite what the movies show, and I wonder how many folks carried two full sized handguns. The carry of two full sized handguns has become known as the "New York Reload". This was the preferred method of carry for the NYCPD Detectives until they recently went to the Glock. Again, despite what is seen in the movies these weapons are not deployed at the same time. One is the primary and one is the backup. When the primary is run dry it is pocketed or dropped in favor of the backup. Modern large capacity handguns like the SIG-Sauer, Glock, Beretta, etc have made the need for a "New York Reload" somewhat uneeded. There are some, like myself, who still do carry two pistols. My primary sidearm is a S&W 640 .38 Special. This is a small stainless steel revolver that is pocket carried....very small and descrete. My secondary sidearm is a SIG-Sauer P220 .45acp. This is a large handgun that is carried in a fannypack (summer) or a holster (winter). Since the P220 is so large it cannot accompany me to a lot of place like the little S&W can. My reasons for carrying a backup handgun are different than what a police officer might state. As a citizen I can only use deadly force under very rigid conditions. I have a checklist in my mind that I go through as I try to get the heck out of dodge. While I am assesing a situation I have considered that I might just get disarmed thus the backup. So a police officer carries a backup to allow him/her the additional firepower and protection the second handgun affords. A citizen is more likely to carry a backup as a form or insurance.

 

[Mycroft]

Where to start? First in terminology. A double pistol is actually not the correct phrase for what you are asking about. In fact there were some double pistols made in the days before revolvers (prior to the 1840s) and they appear to be the handgun version of double barreled shotguns.

Carrying to sidearms most likely does date to the days before cartridge firing weapons came into use. It takes me a few minutes to load a Colt's M1860 and I have been doing it for years. Most shootists carried some form of backup weapon to fend off threats while they were occupied loading their sidearms. Large Bowie knives and small caliber handguns were popular but many just carried a duplicate if the sidearm. That became VERY heavy to carry on your waist, despite what the movies show, and I wonder how many folks carried two full sized handguns. The carry of two full sized handguns has become known as the "New York Reload". This was the preferred method of carry for the NYCPD Detectives until they recently went to the Glock. Again, despite what is seen in the movies these weapons are not deployed at the same time. One is the primary and one is the backup. When the primary is run dry it is pocketed or dropped in favor of the backup. Modern large capacity handguns like the SIG-Sauer, Glock, Beretta, etc have made the need for a "New York Reload" somewhat uneeded. There are some, like myself, who still do carry two pistols. My primary sidearm is a S&W 640 .38 Special. This is a small stainless steel revolver that is pocket carried....very small and descrete. My secondary sidearm is a SIG-Sauer P220 .45acp. This is a large handgun that is carried in a fannypack (summer) or a holster (winter). Since the P220 is so large it cannot accompany me to a lot of place like the little S&W can. My reasons for carrying a backup handgun are different than what a police officer might state. As a citizen I can only use deadly force under very rigid conditions. I have a checklist in my mind that I go through as I try to get the heck out of dodge. While I am assesing a situation I have considered that I might just get disarmed thus the backup. So a police officer carries a backup to allow him/her the additional firepower and protection the second handgun affords. A citizen is more likely to carry a backup as a form or insurance.

Wow, thanks.

 

[JDCrockett]

Just My 2 cents

Well let me try to give some perspective. In the days of single shot, flintlock and later percussion pistols, it was common for people going into harm's way to carry several pistols because reloading was slow, cavalry soldiers carried pommel holsters with pairs of pistols, contemporary woodcuts of pirates show baldric type sashes with 4 or 6 pistols inserted. When Colt and others came up with percussion revolvers they provided 5 or six shots per gun but still were difficult to reload especially on horseback, so some soldiers continued to carry several pistols, especially guerilla types like Quantrill's raiders (the training ground for Jesse James and the Youngers). After the War between the States many left the military and continued to carry multiple guns, (see "The Outlaw Josey Wales" for a hollywood example) Some of the 2 gun phenomenon is/was generated by Hollywood, it's not real common to see period photographs of cowboys and lawmen (even Texas Rangers) during the cartridge era (1870's on) wearing multiple pistols. That being said though I'm sure that some did continue to arm themselves with two pistols when expecting trouble. Contrary to it's popular
moniker of six-shooter, Colt single action pistols are almost always carried with 5 rounds in the cylinder and the hammer resting on an empty chamber. I'm sure many law enforcement officers wouldn't be comfortable facing multiple assailants with only 5 shots.
As far as holsters on belts and shoulder holsters go, the former were probably first used toward the end of the percussion era, I don't think many fulls size flintlocks were carried in holsters on the belt, however some
may have done so. Small pocket pistols were probably carried in leather lined pockets around this time also.
The leather belt holster probably evolved out of the necessity of protecting expensive, vital, equipment
from the elements while stiill having it readily accessible, the military especially favored full flap holsters
to keep out rain. Civilians, not bound by regulations, removed flaps at times for faster access (although I'm sure this was by no means universal). Shoulder holsters seem to have evolved first from leather lined vest
and coat pockets (to minimize snagging of hammers etc.) and later been improved to separate items. Their
popularity seems to be tied to many towns prohibitions on carrying firearms, and/or the desire to carry
handguns while wearing hip length and longer coats (frock coats, and heavy outerwear).
There is a book available (Amazon has it, and possibly larger libraries) called "Packing Iron: Gun Leather Of The Frontier West" by Richard C. Rattenbury that comes highly recommended by the Cowboy Action Shooting people that covers the evolution of holsters and cartridge belts and I believe shoulder holsters as well.

 

[Mycroft]

Well let me try to give some perspective. In the days of single shot, flintlock and later percussion pistols, it was common for people going into harm's way to carry several pistols because reloading was slow, cavalry soldiers carried pommel holsters with pairs of pistols, contemporary woodcuts of pirates show baldric type sashes with 4 or 6 pistols inserted. When Colt and others came up with percussion revolvers they provided 5 or six shots per gun but still were difficult to reload especially on horseback, so some soldiers continued to carry several pistols, especially guerilla types like Quantrill's raiders (the training ground for Jesse James and the Youngers). After the War between the States many left the military and continued to carry multiple guns, (see "The Outlaw Josey Wales" for a hollywood example) Some of the 2 gun phenomenon is/was generated by Hollywood, it's not real common to see period photographs of cowboys and lawmen (even Texas Rangers) during the cartridge era (1870's on) wearing multiple pistols. That being said though I'm sure that some did continue to arm themselves with two pistols when expecting trouble. Contrary to it's popular
moniker of six-shooter, Colt single action pistols are almost always carried with 5 rounds in the cylinder and the hammer resting on an empty chamber. I'm sure many law enforcement officers wouldn't be comfortable facing multiple assailants with only 5 shots.
As far as holsters on belts and shoulder holsters go, the former were probably first used toward the end of the percussion era, I don't think many fulls size flintlocks were carried in holsters on the belt, however some
may have done so. Small pocket pistols were probably carried in leather lined pockets around this time also.
The leather belt holster probably evolved out of the necessity of protecting expensive, vital, equipment
from the elements while stiill having it readily accessible, the military especially favored full flap holsters
to keep out rain. Civilians, not bound by regulations, removed flaps at times for faster access (although I'm sure this was by no means universal). Shoulder holsters seem to have evolved first from leather lined vest
and coat pockets (to minimize snagging of hammers etc.) and later been improved to separate items. Their
popularity seems to be tied to many towns prohibitions on carrying firearms, and/or the desire to carry
handguns while wearing hip length and longer coats (frock coats, and heavy outerwear).
There is a book available (Amazon has it, and possibly larger libraries) called "Packing Iron: Gun Leather Of The Frontier West" by Richard C. Rattenbury that comes highly recommended by the Cowboy Action Shooting people that covers the evolution of holsters and cartridge belts and I believe shoulder holsters as well.

Nice, thanks, and I will into the book.

 

[Badluck Brody]

They hit it on the head my friend...

I really couldn't have said it better and I'll also put in a plug for the book. One of my partners brought it into work about a month back. A great sourcebook!!!

Take care

BLB