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Hidden in Plain Schott: the 613SH Perfecto

mumpy

A-List Customer
Messages
409
Worn pretty heavily the last few months, this jacket is insane! It has lost some of its initial shine as part of the break in process. Nothing artificial, I live in the UK so have been caught in the rain multiple times. This is as good as it gets for me for a badass jacket.

613sh.jpg
 

Arnold

One of the Regulars
Messages
195
Location
Europe
Looks great. If you have time, can you please post measurements? I'm into old school fits (short and tapered) but I no longer trust Schott in that regard because they're so heavily oriented towards long & straight cuts nowadays. They seem to alter old models without notification, and even some posts here suggest that there's not much difference anymore between this model and the 618/ 118 series which was originally introduced specifically to provide room for larger waists.
 

Aloysius

My Mail is Forwarded Here
Messages
3,705
Looks great. If you have time, can you please post measurements? I'm into old school fits (short and tapered) but I no longer trust Schott in that regard because they're so heavily oriented towards long & straight cuts nowadays. They seem to alter old models without notification, and even some posts here suggest that there's not much difference anymore between this model and the 618/ 118 series which was originally introduced specifically to provide room for larger waists.

Huh? The “long and straight cuts” like the 626 were a late 2000s fashion attempt, not the main items, and even those have gotten shortened since.

The 618/118 was not “introduced specifically to provide room for larger waists”. They have a four inch drop, which is the same as the 50s and 60s Perfectos. They were not dramatically V-shaped jackets like early Indian and some others. The length is also mostly comparable if slightly longer today (though the 118 is slightly longer still).

The 618 model number has been in use for at least 50 years.

The main fit difference between the 618S(H) and the standard 618/613 is the leather on the SH and the removal of underarm footballs. The hem is marginally narrower, by a fraction of an inch. Not enough to be noticeable in wear.

All (US market) 618/613/613S jackets have four inches of chest ease for the tagged size, so if you want six, size up, which I did.

The official Schott spec sheet for back length measures it a bit differently since it’s for factory usage than we would when measuring a jacket, so it looks longer. On my size 42, the real back length is 24”.
 

Mrfrown

One Too Many
Messages
1,598
Huh? The “long and straight cuts” like the 626 were a late 2000s fashion attempt, not the main items, and even those have gotten shortened since.

The 618/118 was not “introduced specifically to provide room for larger waists”. They have a four inch drop, which is the same as the 50s and 60s Perfectos. They were not dramatically V-shaped jackets like early Indian and some others. The length is also mostly comparable if slightly longer today (though the 118 is slightly longer still).

The 618 model number has been in use for at least 50 years.

The main fit difference between the 618S(H) and the standard 618/613 is the leather on the SH and the removal of underarm footballs. The hem is marginally narrower, by a fraction of an inch. Not enough to be noticeable in wear.

All (US market) 618/613/613S jackets have four inches of chest ease for the tagged size, so if you want six, size up, which I did.

The official Schott spec sheet for back length measures it a bit differently since it’s for factory usage than we would when measuring a jacket, so it looks longer. On my size 42, the real back length is 24”.
I’d also add that the 613s and 613sh don’t have the oval dip to the back, they’re more blunt cut. Which makes for a slightly longer front length (my understanding, haven’t handled one yet but plan to)
 

mumpy

A-List Customer
Messages
409
Looks great. If you have time, can you please post measurements? I'm into old school fits (short and tapered) but I no longer trust Schott in that regard because they're so heavily oriented towards long & straight cuts nowadays. They seem to alter old models without notification, and even some posts here suggest that there's not much difference anymore between this model and the 618/ 118 series which was originally introduced specifically to provide room for larger waists.

I just measured the jacket, see below:

Size: 40
P2P: 22
Sleeve: 25.5
Sleeve opening: 5
Shoulder: 18.4
Back length: 24.7
Front length: 26.6
Bottom hem: 19
 

mumpy

A-List Customer
Messages
409
The good thing with a slightly longer front length is that I can wear my flannels untucked and not look completely ridiculous.
 

Arnold

One of the Regulars
Messages
195
Location
Europe
I'm all for front being longer than back. And I mixed up the 618 and 118, my bad, but so did the reply - yes, the 118 (and the defunct 125) is a longer and slightly fuller-in-the-waist cut than the 618 and other older models. Gail (RIP) and others from Schott have personally stated that.
 

Aloysius

My Mail is Forwarded Here
Messages
3,705
I'm all for front being longer than back. And I mixed up the 618 and 118, my bad, but so did the reply - yes, the 118 (and the defunct 125) is a longer and slightly fuller-in-the-waist cut than the 618 and other older models. Gail (RIP) and others from Schott have personally stated that.

It's not, really.

The only difference is that the 141/118 etc are sized one size bigger than the corresponding 641/618 in the same size. It's not a different cut. A 118 in 40 = 618 in 42; the pattern is the same.
 

Arnold

One of the Regulars
Messages
195
Location
Europe
I'll look up my old messages from Gail, Jerry etc. to see how they compare against your claim. They even sent me a comparison table of measurements. What's your source btw?

As for "late 2000s", right now their "motorcycle" selection is chock full of "fashion" models like PER62, P628H P677, 519 and others. While in the 2000s they at least were still producing a serious full belt model (the 125, cut like the 118 but with added side lacing for a bit of optional V-taper).

I suspect you might be confusing the "just sized up one size" thing with the 125 which was recommended to size up because of its zip-out pile lining, or because the recommendation for the faux fur collar is to size up when buying it for a 118 or 125 as opposed to 618.

Edited for typos
 

Aloysius

My Mail is Forwarded Here
Messages
3,705
I'll look up my old messages from Gail, Jerry etc. to see how they compare against your claim. They even sent me a comparison table of measurements. What's your source btw?

I'm not making an outlandish claim; I am stating the fundamentals about these jackets. Nevertheless, my source is factory spec sheets, the same forum posts you've read, conversations with the Schott family in person, conversations with the QC team at the factory, etc.

This has been Schott's standard practice with 1-series vs 6-series sizing for decades now. The 618 and 118 are the same pattern, except the size numbering is different. Additionally, the 118 gets a buckle snap by default and is marginally longer. The reason the Schott team describes the 618/613 as more of a riding jacket than the 118 is because the topcoat is much better at keeping away rain than the naked hide.

Yes, Gail said the 118 fits fuller than the 618, and when she explained what this means, she said that a size 40 618 is a size 38 118. I.e. graded one size bigger.

As for "late 2000s", right now their "motorcycle" selection is chock full of "fashion" models like PER62, P628H P677, 519 and others. While in the 2000s they at least were still producing a serious full belt model (the 125, cut like the 118 but with added side lacing for a bit of optional V-taper).

The PER62 is just a 618 in pigment finished cowhide, while the P628H is a 1940s/1950s aviator. The P677 is a CXL cross-zip in the standard fit, while the 519 is a 613S in slightly lighter cowhide. None of these is a "fashion" model.

The 125 is not more "serious" than the 618; they always offered attached belt and removable belt models. Beck jackets were mostly removable belt, whereas under the Schott label they offered both versions. The side lacing doesn't give you any additional V-taper, given it fastens directly at the hem; it plays the role that the belt does, in case the wearer is wearing the jacket without the belt, or is using the bridle belt as a duty belt.

Those models still had the same roughly 4" drop as the modern models so there wouldn't be a huge amount of extra chest space to pull in.

Here, my "source" is owning these jackets, plus the sources mentioned above.

I suspect you might be confusing the "just sized up one size" thing with the 125 which was recommended to size up because of its zip-out pile lining, or because the recommendation for the faux fur collar is to size up when buying it for a 118 or 125 as opposed to 618.

The 641 has the same pile liner as the 141, however since the 90s Schott has labeled the naked cowhide jackets starting with 1-- and they are labeled one size different from the corresponding 6-- model.

Here, my source is the top category and trying on the jackets but I'm not much of a cafe racer fan so I never ended up buying one. Was tempted by the CAF1 though because it's an exact repro of the early Beck-Schott cafe racer and was about to buy the 689H only the sale timed out at the store I was ordering it from as I was trying to buy.
 

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