On being a "newbie" and the general familiarity of hat quality.

[MattJH]

I've only been a reader/member of this forum for a few months, but already, my knowledge of hats has increased exponentially, as has my hat collection! I've had several nice conversations with various members via private messages, and Mr Maltby even sent me a complimentary hat that was my size as a good-will gift after reading the details of a failed eBay purchase I made. I've found people here to be extremely helpful, to say the least -- everyone is always chomping at the bit to reply to my messages and assist me, answer questions, or discuss/show-off new acquisitions to each other.

I'm saying all of this because I do not want this post to come off as being anti-The Fedora Lounge. It's not! But I have noticed a few trends that I think are worth discussing, and may be valuable to read for other new participants. As a "newbie" when it comes to hats, I'd like to describe my impressions of The Fedora Lounge when it comes to new people asking questions about what hats to buy, what to avoid, and general suggestions.

There is a contingent of posters here who are extremely experienced -- that is that they've read books, have tried on more hats than most of us have even touched, and only settle for the absolute best.

I am similar with computers -- I've worked in the IT field all my life, and I never (ever!) buy mass-manufactured machines (Dell, Compaq, Gateway, etc.). I always build my own from scratch. There's no better computer than a custom-built one. My advice is sound, and the contingent of posters I'm referring to have sound advice as well. But it's not gospel! I would never recommend a custom-built computer to a new computer user -- it'd be a waste of their money and they'd never fully appreciate or utilize the machine. It's too early. Get a cheap Dell and learn first.

Not everyone can afford or justify the cost of a custom Art Fawcett, a custom Optimo, a vintage Borsalino, Dobbs, Stetson, Knox, Resistol, Cavanaugh, Champ, etc. or a new Akubra. Let's face it -- hats are expensive, and the cost isn't decreasing! My suggestion to new people interested in hats mirrors a lot of other Fedora Lounge members: if it fits, you like the way it looks, it's affordable, and it's comfortable enough for you to wear it, then get it! But that's it. Every other criteria is entirely secondary, including whether or not it's wool felt or fur felt (although you always go fur felt if the cost is the same either way, which I've found is sometimes the case!).

Consider these numbers:

Estimated United States population as of 2002: Approximately 300 million.
Estimated United States Internet users as of 2002: 6.6 million [source]
Current members of The Fedora Lounge: 5,178

Truth: The Fedora Lounge is a microcosm. Virtually no one is going to know the difference between your wool Mello-Felt Stetson and your fur-felt Akubra Federation Deluxe except you. All they see is a person wearing a hat. Most people do not know the term "fedora" or, if they do, they don't exactly know what it is, usually equating the term to the pinstriped $15 fashion-outlet hats sold in malls or commonly adorned by Justin Timberlake and other Hollywood stars/starlets that barely even resemble stingy-brims. Sometimes the term "fedora" will cause them to picture a cowboy hat. In fact, most people think "Stetson" is synonymous with "Cowboy hat." Even fewer know the difference between the classic fedora and a homburg (a quick look at eBay will prove this quickly!), and I can pretty much guarantee you that they do not know what a Tyrolean is!

I'm about to order an Akubra Casual in Regency Fawn from Aussie Bush Hats and Oilskins because, thanks to the knowledgable and dependable contributors here, I know that Akubra is held in high-regard when it comes to new hats and I want a brown, fur-felt, crushable hat that I can beat up a bit but will last me a long, long time and keep going. In other words, it meets the function I've intended for it and it is worth my $90.00 to get it.

I acquired about 15 Brooks Brothers ties from my wife's grandfather's wardrobe after he died. I'm currently wearing my favorite one; a rust-colored tie with blue/red/cream-colored carousel horses. They are beautiful. The fabric is excellent. The knots are smoother than any other tie I've ever worn. The patterns are vibrant, unique, dapper. Amount of people who've noticed: exactly zero. I just really like the ties. That's what counts!

My point is this: a nice hat is always nice to have, but you're typically going to be the only person who knows it, and this factors heavily into my own choices. While Borsalinos and Stetsons aren't made like they used to be made and while Baileys are often looked upon as barely-above-Burlington-Coat-Factory quality, who cares, exactly? Who will even know the difference? Are you dressing for The Fedora Lounge or are you dressing for yourself?

P.S. - Interest in film noir and/or Indiana Jones is not a requisite, so don't feel left out if you're indifferent to both like I am! I'm with you; I just really like hats.

 

[jamespowers]

The other end of that of course is that there are many here who do not want to steer you in the wrong direction. If you ask for an opinion then you are going to get one. We compare apples with apples here.
Price really has nothing to do with it either. I picked up a nice Mallory a few weeks ago for less than $40. Now that is cheaper than anything you can buy today off the rack and within the reach of just about everyone on this forum. Its not about the price it is about the quality.
I could care less if someone notices the high quality of the hat I am wearing it is all about wearability, ability to withstand elements and last a long time when worn. Construction and materials used have a lot to do with that being possible. Something slapped together with poor materials and without regard to craftsmanship will yield poor results. This is exactly what we warn people about. If you want a toy hat then by all means buy whatever you want but if you want a hat that will last and give you years of service then you have to pay attention to details. The same is true for clothing, shoes and everything else we talk about here.
In an effort to help all people along with sartorial issues, we have standards. They apply evenly across the board without bias. Without standards, there would be no measure to use in regard to that which we find excellent and that which we find inferior.

Regards,

J

 

[The Wingnut]

I can understand your impression and opinion. I'm one of the vintage nazis...I don't really care to buy anything new and can't afford a custom, either, so I'm always on the prowl for something high quality, pre-'50s, but inexpensive.

...for $90, you can definitely afford vintage, unless the thought of wearing someone else's hat (specifically, a more-likely-than-not dead someone else) is a complete turn-off to you.

I've not spent more than $75 on each of my vintage fedoras, and for most I've spent less than $60. I'm a cheapskate to the bone, but I when I find a deal, I pounce. Patience and persistence pays off.

...and JP has it right, they just don't make 'em like they used to, to invoke the old cliche. It's really more about one's own desire for high quality and durability than anything else. If a vintage hat has lasted in decent shape for 60+ years, it's a good indicator that it'll last for possibly that much more.

 

[feltfan]

Mr Maltby even sent me a complimentary hat that was my size as a good-will gift after reading the details of a failed eBay purchase

The first one's always free. I've seen Maltby by the schoolyard.

Cavanaugh, Champ, etc. or a new Akubra. Let's face it -- hats are expensive, and the cost isn't decreasing! My suggestion to new people

Some of my best hats cost less than $10. Most of my
best hats cost $100 or less. People are
still finding those deals. They just don't come around
all that often. You have to be patient, clever, and persistent.
Or pay.

Truth: The Fedora Lounge is a microcosm. Virtually no one is going to know the difference between your wool Mello-Felt Stetson and your fur-felt Akubra Federation Deluxe except you. All they see is a person wearing a
(...)
I acquired about 15 Brooks Brothers ties from my wife's grandfather's wardrobe after he died. I'm currently wearing my favorite one; a rust-colored tie with blue/red/cream-colored carousel horses. They are beautiful. The fabric is excellent. The knots are smoother than any other tie I've ever worn. The patterns are vibrant, unique, dapper. Amount of people who've noticed: exactly zero. I just really like the ties. That's what counts!

You don't know what others are thinking.
I saw two top knotch vintage Borsalinos on
passers-by when I was in NYC over the holidays. I admired them,
but did not comment. I've seen a lot of tapered, faded, downright
ugly wool hats and similarly have not commented. I have not
shot anyone with a backwards baseball cap... yet.

But more important, you never know when people will tumble
to quality. No one is going to be inspired to wear good hats
when everyone is wearing junk that looks bad. Two of my
friends started wearing quality hats when they saw what I
was wearing and appreciated it. They have never heard of
The Fedora Lounge. Seeing a classy hat gives
the viewer an idea of what hats can be. We react to that
when we watch noir movies.

My point is this: a nice hat is always nice to have, but you're typically going to be the only person who knows it, and this factors heavily into my own choices. While Borsalinos and Stetsons aren't made like they used to be made and while Baileys are often looked upon as barely-above-Burlington-Coat-Factory quality, who cares, exactly? Who will even know the difference? Are you dressing for The Fedora Lounge or are you dressing for yourself?

I'm dressing for myself. That's why I wouldn't wear a piece of
crap with an uncomfortable cardboard sweatband and ugly felt that
fades in the sun and shrinks in the rain. Hey, I just might be the
only person who knows it, but I'm important and don't deserve to
have carboard rubbing off on my brow, rain water seeping
through my hat, and the cost of replacing my hat every few months.
I assume that's why you're choosing an Akubra over a Bailey or a Stetson.

There are two issues here, quality and aesthetics (and yes, they
are related). Most new hats are not quality products. That is, they
are not pleasant to wear and they don't last. Why would you spend
your money on that? As for aesthetics, why would you put something
ugly on your head and walk around in public? Don't forget that a lot
of those crummy hats cost real money.
More than a good vintage hat, if you bide your time.

Dumbjaw, this forum is dedicated to the Golden Era. If someone
in the 1940s walked around with a Tilley hat or a cheap wool
"fedora" with a low crown and no discernable block, people would
send them to a soup kitchen. I think the point here is the resurrection
of the better values of that time. Quality in hats is one of those things
from that period that is sadly lacking in most hats made today.
On this forum, we are supposed to keep to a high standard.
That of the Golden Age. This is not a "how to keep your head warm" forum.

 

[Joel Tunnah]

You ask, 'who cares?' - I care! I buy hats to please myself, and nobody else. And if I could only go back and spend all that early money on another Art Fawcett, I'd be a happy man.

The other silly thing about this "old vs new" question, is that the price differential has shrunk to the point where it's simply dumb to go out and buy a new Stetson or Biltmore for half the cost of a custom 100% beaver hat. It's even dumber to get a Borsalino for the SAME price as a custom! And any new-to-hats person would do well to 1) go as cheap as possible via eBay, simply to get used to wearing hats, and then 2) get a custom or vintage once you're committed.

I wish I had followed this very advice when it was given to me by the wonderful Lounge members last year.

Joel

 

[jamespowers]

You ask, 'who cares?' - I care! I buy hats to please myself, and nobody else. And if I could only go back and spend all that early money on another Art Fawcett, I'd be a happy man.

The other silly thing about this "old vs new" question, is that the price differential has shrunk to the point where it's simply dumb to go out and buy a new Stetson or Biltmore for half the cost of a custom 100% beaver hat. It's even dumber to get a Borsalino for the SAME price as a custom! And any new-to-hats person would do well to 1) go as cheap as possible via eBay, simply to get used to wearing hats, and then 2) get a custom or vintage once you're committed.

I wish I had followed this very advice when it was given to me by the wonderful Lounge members last year.

Joel

Another happy customer. You've got the gist of it now.

Regards,

J

 

[TaxMan1]

I'm listening.........

 

[MattJH]

I think I've been misconstrued! This isn't anybody's fault -- it must've been my wording. If I could find a vintage at the same price as a new, I'd go for it in an instant, but I'm a 24"/61cm guy, so it's not always the best option for me. The vintage hats that are listed on eBay at this price balloon due to their relative rarity. I have a hard time making a purchase on a hat I can't try on myself and see how it looks. Of course, I could relist the hat giving the proper measurements if that occurs, but it's a fair bit of trouble that, at this point, I'm not interested in investing time in.

I also really like everything I know about the Akubra Casual, and I'll be certain to post pictures when I procure it. It'll be a fantastic beater hat, and I'd prefer if it was me starting the beating process.

The intent of my post was not to discourage new people in the hat world to invest in vintage hats or high-priced custom hats, it was to reassure those who have the same sentiments as me (and there are some out there!) that if you do not want to go that route, nobody's going to be any the wiser except for people here and sharp-eyed hat enthusiasts on the street. I say this because some posts I've read have an underlying current of attempting to meet the expectations and demands of the best and most experienced participants, but this doesn't always make sense in the beginning.

What if you end up not really liking hats after dropping $130 for an Akubra Federation, or $200-$300 on an Art Fawcett? I suppose that also makes you an impulsive consumer, too!

 

[Feraud]

What if you end up not really liking hats after dropping $130 for an Akubra Federation, or $200-$300 on an Art Fawcett? I suppose that also makes you an impulsive consumer, too!

Right. It is easy to become enamoured with all the "bright and shiny" we see at the Lounge.
What if you spend that kind of money on a hat and decide you do not like it?
To be honest, you will re-sell it to a member at a discounted price. Good for us, bad for you.

I try to advise newbies to buy what they can afford but more importantly wear the hat. Forget about buying that custom hat or scouring Ebay for the deadstock Open Road. Go to a local hat store, try on a bunch of hats and see what you like.

 

[jamespowers]

If I could find a vintage at the same price as a new, I'd go for it in an instant, but I'm a 24"/61cm guy, so it's not always the best option for me. The vintage hats that are listed on eBay at this price balloon due to their relative rarity. I have a hard time making a purchase on a hat I can't try on myself and see how it looks. Of course, I could relist the hat giving the proper measurements if that occurs, but it's a fair bit of trouble that, at this point, I'm not interested in investing time in.

Yep, its real tough:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...MEWN:IT&viewitem=&item=270075487983&rd=1&rd=1
I had to dip into the savings account for this one.

Regards,

J

 

[griffer]

Pre-Fedora Lounge, I asked my grandfather for a specific Bailey, around $80.

He gave it to me for Christmas a couple seasons ago.

That Bailey looked great out of the box, but from rain, sweat, and snow, it lasted less than a year.

Quality and cut- as with suits- applies to hats.

Now I have this gift, from a man I respect and wish I were closer to, that is unwearable and goofy looking. I wish had known better than to waste his money and my time.

Hence, my new rain hat is a $100 Akubra Casual. Certainly more than a $40 fashion piece, but not much more than a Bailey, and I know it will be with me for a while.

 

[Mr Maltby]

Feltfan -

You saw me by the schoolyard and didnt stop? Where have you been going? senator jacks? lol

 

[Tango Yankee]

As a relatively recent newcomer

I understand the point Dumbjaw is tryng to make. I came across the Lounge by accident. I've been wearing hats of various types for years, including an "official" Indiana Jones 100% wool fedora I bought in the early 80s. The other hats tended to be the ones that are often referred to as "safari" hats or "Gable" hats, generally of that canvas-like fabric or leather.

This forum sparked a more serious interest in hats as well as fueled a latent desire to start dressing nicer now that I don't have to wear DCUs to work. It is a running joke in my family that once I get interested in something I tend to research it quite a bit. This forum has been a gold mine of information for me.

Having had the Indi fedora I knew what a cheap wool hat was like. Unfortunately there is a shortage of places around here where I can go look at good vintage hats so I turned to eBay. I bought a number of hats, some by unknown names, others by the best. I inadvertantly found myself with no less than five stingy brims (four were sold in one lot) and found I like them. They're easier to wear in today's cars because the back of the brim doesn't bump the head rest as easily! I also acquired a Stetson and a Borsalino.

Now, I wouldn't have known what to look for if it wasn't for this forum. Armed with this knowledge (which is just scratching the surface) I am just able to start appreciating the differences between cheap and well-made hats.

Now, Dumbjaw is right--most of the people I see haven't got a clue as to whether or not a hat I'm wearing is a cheap wool one or a Borsalino. They don't even care. But as others have observed, I'm wearing the hats for myself and I'm the one that counts. I appreciate quality and enjoy the opportunity to wear quality hats. The fact that no one else around me knows the difference doesn't matter--I know, and that's what counts. I owe the fact that I'm starting to know the difference to the many knowledgeable posters here, and I'm grateful that they share their knowledge and experience with we newcomers.

Cheers,
Tom

PS I know, I know, I still need to post pictures of all these hats!

 

[MattJH]

Yep, its real tough:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...MEWN:IT&viewitem=&item=270075487983&rd=1&rd=1
I had to dip into the savings account for this one.

Regards,

J

Oh, that's a NICE one. I should probably refine my saved eBay search queries

 

[jamespowers]

Oh, that's a NICE one. I should probably refine my saved eBay search queries

See? You learned something already.

Regards,

J

 

[MattJH]

See? You learned something already.

Regards,

J

Well, yes, in regards to eBay search queries. I already know what larger hats go for. You're generally looking at a $40 - $60 range, which is inflated when compared to hats of more average size. I just watched this one slip away. It ended minutes ago. It was tempting, but I can't bring myself to do the eBay thing, I guess -- I like hands-on. $50.00 is a lot to shell out for something that doesn't have a definitive return policy. Nice looking hat, though!

 

[jamespowers]

Well, yes, in regards to eBay search queries. I already know what larger hats go for. You're generally looking at a $40 - $60 range, which is inflated when compared to hats of more average size. I just watched this one slip away. It ended minutes ago. It was tempting, but I can't bring myself to do the eBay thing, I guess -- I like hands-on. $50.00 is a lot to shell out for something that doesn't have a definitive return policy. Nice looking hat, though!

You never know until you try.

Regards,

J

 

[Chanfan]

To be honest, I do get the feeling, the undercurrent, that Dumbjaw talks about. As a newcomer, one does worry, after attempting to absorb a bit of the knowledge, that the options open to you are:

• Purchase something on the pricey end, before you have your feet well under you. Intimidating from the dizzying array of styles, colors, options - and what might look good (or not!) on you.
  
• Digging into ebay/vintage right away - also intimidating. Buying without seeing is always a hurdle, and while I see and know that good deals are still out there, the "buzz" seems to be that prices are up. Also, lots of brands - including now defunct ones - and a fear of buying "wrong" or things that are only masquerading as vintage. Are hats of the 70's junk? 60's?
  
• Purchase something new, but not too high end/custom. Has the advantage of you can try things on, and know it's history, and that it's in good shape to start with. But, from the reports (and I'll exaggerate, but it's the feeling) - it will dye your head and self-shred in the first rain, be made of copier paper, shrink like a shrinky-dink, etc. Also, those "in the know" will smile knowing smiles and quietly shake their heads when they see you.

Now mind you, much if this is exaggerated perception! A also agree that the lounge has been very helpful, informative, educational, and fun. Still, it's a bit like deciding you want to try scotch, and then showing up with a bottle at a single malt society tasting party (or whatever simile works for you). Did you buy a plastic bottle of rutgut? Did you spend $200 on a 21-year old, and then decide you hate the flavor?

In my own case, I got the urge to try a hat (and had been reading a bit here), and my local hat shop provided the means to instant gratification. I didn't want something too poor quality, and ended up springing for a new Stetson at around $120.

Despite the fact that it feels perfectly comfortable, has dealt with (light) rain fine so far, and I think it looks good, I worry. I see modern Stetsons trashed in discussions. For what I paid, I could have probably made many ebay purchases, tried different styles, and come out with a better quality hat. Or, I could have paid more and gotten a superior custom!

As I know experience is hard won and the folks here have plenty. I suspect I may find in a year, that my hat hasn't held up as well as I might hope. Perhaps a real downpour will put it to a true test, and I'll get a brown head. Likely I will win an ebay auction for a true vintage hat, and when I get my hands on it, I'll know the difference, rather than just read about it.

But for now, my hat is making me pretty darned happy. I'm happy to have taken the plunge - and received a few compliments - and that's worth my greenbacks. Hindsight may make me wish I had chosen better in the future, but hey, I gotta start somewhere!

 

[John in Covina]

Fad, Hobby, Collector or Lifestyle?

There are differences with the aspects of if it (Fedora wearing) is a fad, hobby, if you are a collector or is it a lifestyle. Hopefully all three of the latter, or is it just bits and pieces of these approaches to Fedora wearing. I started with a Stetson Sovreign from the Hats Mart in Pasadena about 8 or 9 years ago, and up to last year wore that hat occasionally. (Grey with black ribbon I always wanted to pair it with a grey suit at some point. And still haven't gotten the grey suit YET!) It was my toe dipping excercise with little or no idea other than Stetson was a name brand that seemed trustworthy. A while back I decided I'd get my dad's old Borsalino resized, cleaned and blocked. Went online and stumbled into the Fedora Lounge. Armed with more info I had the work done and have a superb renovated Borsalino that I love dearly and happens to go well with my Double Breasted suit. Since then I have bought 3 hats on Ebay with one just not being me, I gave to a friend whom it fit. The two remaing are delightful: a straw Dobbs Rouge that is truly a happy hat and a Dobbs Westward (Open Road Clone)that seems to be late 40's early 50's in pretty much unworn condition. And I did not spend much for either. So deals are there and sometimes you'll wait for it, sometimes they will fall into you lap. Other hats have made their way into my home and on my head. All were targets of opportunity. Unexpected funds or a good deal. I aspire to get an Art Fawcett custom at some point. Some other purchases were put off to allow hat buying as I shifted my allocations.

What does it mean? Your level of enjoyment and commitment do not have to be on the same level. My dad had 2 dress hats (the other was stolen when it was used in my senior play) so I have more than he thought neccesary.
Will I buy more, yes most likely as time and funds permit.
When will I own all I want? Never.
Do I have more than I need? Probably.
Will I stop? No, I am a collector, it is a hobby and part of my lifestyle.

(I like vintage stuff and fashion, I can get vintage hats that fit me that I can wear and enjoy. Suits are going to be hard to find, we'll see, but in the meantime I will try to get as close as I can in modern and not be frustrated or put off that I can't find what I want in clothes, it's ok.)

Do your homework, and try on some hats. Buy something you like and go for the best quality you can afford. If you enjoy the hat and you find you want more, then I'd say go for quality over quantity. A good quality hat will last a long time, with a little luck you can leave them to someone in your will.

Sincerely,

 

[griffer]

It's not a lifestyle, it's a hat.

Like any other item, research and discretion make an informed purchase that maximizes quality within your budget.

I do the same thing with headphones, cars, wives, etc.