Petersham or Grosgrain ribbon?

[1mach1]

I know the basic differences between the two, but was wondering if petersham ribbons would stretch over time if used as a hat band. I want to order a new fedora, and was contemplating the petersham for something different. Thoughts?

PS: I apologize if this is a repeat thread, but I could not find any info on it on the site.

 

[job]

I think you would be fine using a vintage ribbon.

Sent from my XT1049 using Tapatalk

 

[TheDane]

Petersham is just as durable. As far as I know, some of the early Stetson Flagships were the only "factory" fedoras that ever came with a petersham - and they still hold up. I never liked it's looks - but it's just as durable

 

[Rabbit]

Right. Provided it's good quality ribbon, the finish of the ribbon edge (Petersham or grosgrain) should make no difference in terms of how much it stretches.
Petersham ribbon is often used on vintage women's hats. For men's hats, it's the rare exception as Ole mentioned.

 

[TheDane]

A small detail, but both types of ribbon are "grosgrain". The word refers to the weave pattern between the edges. The ribbon used for mens hats is usually called "edge woven", while Petersham sometimes is called "sawtooth edge"

 

[Greyryder]

There's a nice selection of the appropriate ribbon, at Amazon. Might not be as good as vintage, but it'll work a lot better than the polyester ribbon that's so common most places. You will end up having to buy a larger spool than you'll need, though. It's what I used on my hat, and its been fine. I was able to iron it into an arc, and it stays tight to the brim.

If you need 1½" navy blue or 3/8" baby blue let me know. I've got plenty to spare.

If you really want that sawtooth edge, look for millinery ribbon.

 

[BladeOfAnduril]

Is there are particular ribbon composition that's most desirable for a hat band? I'm seeing grosgrain offered in 100% poly, 100% rayon and rayon/cotton blend. Who makes the best quality grosgrain?

Thanks

 

[TheDane]

Polyester is useless for mens dress hats. Usually rayon/cotton is easier to work with than 100% rayon. Some vintage silk blends are also very useable.

All contemporary manufactured rayon is made out of synthetic fibres - whereas it used to be made from natural cellulose. Modern rayon has very different properties, compared to rayon from the 30s or 50s. As far as I know, only Japaneese Mokuba makes rayon/cotton ribbon from natural cellulose. It is extremely expensive, and private customers can only buy directly from one of their shops in a few capitols around the World.

Back in the day, Schiff made a lot of the ribbon for hatters and factories - also sold under other brands. You can still get them to make ribbon in the old pattern(s), but you have to order thousands of yards to get them interested. Ordering thousands of yards of several widths and colors (quality grosgrain is yarn-dyed, so it can't be dyed after production) is only realistic to very large companies. And it will still be made from modern, stiff rayon. Schiff's 705-pattern, mentioned above, is quite far from vintage ribbon. It's very much stiffer and very much thicker.

Mokuba is probably a very good choise, but only practical to very few. Vintage is absolutely the way to go, but it can be hard to find "the right" ribbon, when you need it.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Lawrence Schiff Mills now sells directly on Amazon.com, which is great! Looks like you can order a 50-yard roll without having to do the large quantities they require from the factory.


Additionally, I finally found a source for Mokuba ribbon online that sells by the yard. I picked up two yards of the black silk bridal taffeta, at a cost of about $14.00 a yard, but this stuff is almost an exact match for most of my old Dobbs, Crofut & Knapp, and Cavanagh Derbies. I plan to use one yard to re-bind the edge of my C&K top hat, and hang on to the other. I've got one Dobbs that could use a repair at some point. This also works for the crown ribbon, though I wish it was a ligne or so wider.

Brad

 

[BladeOfAnduril]

Why is polyester considered "useless"? Is it just too difficult to work with?

 

[Mr.Astor]

Rayon ribbon will not bell like a true vintage ribbon, it is very stiff,if it is ironed it will not loose the memory you put in it. A woven edge ribbon is very soft and can be corrected if you made a mistake in ironing. The Dane is right Mokuba manufacture's a fine ribbon also Hyman Hendler. You can check your ribbon to the content cotton rayon by doing the match test if it balls up and burns your fingers it's the wrong stuff!! If it ashes up your close to the real deal! I buy from some vintage ribbon sellers on line look where they are shipping from and if it was a center for the textile industry I'll buy some but about 30% I throw away or resell. It's like the old adage concerning pornography you'll know it when you see it!

 

[Blakesby]

Thanks for this, as I was wondering myself whether petersham rather than grosgrain was appropriate for men's hats. I've mostly seen grosgrain on men's hats, but having been taught how to make hats with more of a leaning towards women's styles, it's almost been programmed into me that petersham is the way to go, and I always figured surely it wouldn't be that much of a faux pas to use it rather than grosgrain. I think I'll be trying to invest into grosgrain too, but this sets my mind at ease that I can carry on using petersham on my men's hats without causing any kind of great offence!

 

[RJR]

I doubt that many would know/notice the difference.

 

[LuvMyMan]

From my own use of a wide ribbon that was true vintage, the contents of having both cotton and rayon seems to make a large difference in use for a hat band. Not an expert, but if I am not mistaken petersham is grosgrain. Some ribbons have a different "finish" along the outer edge of the ribbon itself.

Many Etsy sellers and some on eBay both, have vintage grosgrain for sale. Some that are selling will let you know the content of the ribbon and even have the knowledge of what you can or cannot use it for, as they have done many millenary projects themselves.

I recently purchased some 2 inch wide vintage grosgrain and in a flash I was able to "swirl" it properly with an iron in less than a few minutes, to have placed the ribbon around a size 7 1/2 fedora. The ribbon was from the 1930's and was so fantastic to work with.

 

[tonyb]

^^^^^
Yes, the primary difference between Petersham and hatband ribbon is the edge treatment. Petersham has a sawtooth-like edge; hatband has a "woven" or "finished" edge.

There are some pretty darned nice modern hatband ribbons, and some so-so modern hatband ribbons, and a whole lotta crummy modern hatband ribbons. I count myself fortunate to have acquired quite a bit of true vintage hatband ribbon over the past few years. Only the very best of the new stuff comes close to matching it. As LuvMyMan observed, it's a real pleasure to work with it.

People who sell true vintage hatband ribbon by the yard get quite a bit of money for it, but it's easy to justify the expense if it's the ribbon you need for the look you want. I have a couple of sources I tap every now and then for a few yards of a ribbon I just don't have. I pay through the nose for it, but it's worth it if it allows me to produce a hat I wouldn't have been able to otherwise.

 

[LuvMyMan]

^^^^^
Yes, the primary difference between Petersham and hatband ribbon is the edge treatment. Petersham has a sawtooth-like edge; hatband has a "woven" or "finished" edge.

There are some pretty darned nice modern hatband ribbons, and some so-so modern hatband ribbons, and a whole lotta crummy modern hatband ribbons. I count myself fortunate to have acquired quite a bit of true vintage hatband ribbon over the past few years. Only the very best of the new stuff comes close to matching it. As LuvMyMan observed, it's a real pleasure to work with it.

People who sell true vintage hatband ribbon by the yard get quite a bit of money for it, but it's easy to justify the expense if it's the ribbon you need for the look you want. I have a couple of sources I tap every now and then for a few yards of a ribbon I just don't have. I pay through the nose for it, but it's worth it if it allows me to produce a hat I wouldn't have been able to otherwise.

Well there we have it! Hearing it from a hat lover that also makes hats, says it far better than I could.

Yes the real vintage ribbon is so nice to work with. I have some modern here, and it just fights when using an iron to try to swirl it. Like a piece of wood, it just does not want to bend from the iron at all.

 

[RJR]

Good information from one who knows.

 

[Frunobulax]

Well, I'm about ready to dive in and change out the ribbon on a newer hat, and I'm looking for the right ribbon to get. From reading this thread:

It's all grosgrain (Petersham & woven edge), with woven edge "preferred" for men's hatbands.
Antique or vintage is the preferred, if you can get it, as it contains the "old" cellulose-based rayon.
100% rayon is not desired, as it's easier to work with a rayon/cotton blend, but what about rayon/silk blends. Any preferences among those who have worked with them?
When ordering, how many yards are required to finish a hat, including bow?

 

[tonyb]

Well, I'm about ready to dive in and change out the ribbon on a newer hat, and I'm looking for the right ribbon to get. From reading this thread:

It's all grosgrain (Petersham & woven edge), with woven edge "preferred" for men's hatbands.
Antique or vintage is the preferred, if you can get it, as it contains the "old" cellulose-based rayon.
100% rayon is not desired, as it's easier to work with a rayon/cotton blend, but what about rayon/silk blends. Any preferences among those who have worked with them?
When ordering, how many yards are required to finish a hat, including bow?

I've used silk ribbon. It has its place, but for "standard" fedoras cotton/rayon blend is where it's at.

As to the amount you'll need ... It depends on how elaborate the bow is. Unless the hat size is unusually small or large, figure about 22 inches for the band ribbon. A simple bow (and "knot") could be made with as little as six or seven inches of ribbon. But that's leaving yourself very little room for error. On those occasions when I buy small amounts of ribbon I typically get at least three yards. That's waaay more than I'll need for the one hat for which I procured the ribbon, with enough left over to make at least another one quite like it, if not two others (again, depending on how elaborate a bow one wishes to make).

 

[Frunobulax]

Thanks, Tony. I figured I'd need to overcompensate on the amount.