Questions About the United States Navy Peacoat

[David Minton]

I would stay with the 40 ligne as they are the standard size. Just go ahead and place an order for what you need with Waterbury. If they don't like it, they can refuse it. Don't know that the company requires a minimum order, but it might.

I just assumed that they only sold wholesale since I don't see any pricing, or way to place an order through the Waterbury website. I believe this is the correct pattern, though I am not sure if Military Spec Gold or Military Spec Hamilton Gold is the correct finish. I believe the Navy is currently transitioning from matt gold to shiny gold buttons.

I have a bridge coat that doesn't fit well, and I'm contemplating cutting the buttons from it. It has 12 buttons, and I only have $20.00 in it. Somehow that just seems wrong, though so does spending $40.00 plus shipping to buy a set of 8 new buttons from the Navy Exchange. I may just watch eBay for a reefer in my size, and wear my WWII peacoat while I'm waiting.

 

[Peacoat]

That is the correct pattern. For the enlisted buttons of the same style, I think the color is Silver Oxide (Antique), but I'm no longer sure about that. Seems that I looked into it several years ago. If that is correct, the color for the officer buttons could also be Gold Oxide (Antique).

Give them a call and see what they say: 800 928 1812. And please let us know.

Yes, that would be wrong to remove the buttons from a coat that no longer fits for another project. I would bit the ****** and spend the money.

 

[Physicist]

I was issued a peacoat in 1983. I have no idea where it is now. But I've been thinking about getting another one.

What's your opinion on the Schott peacoat?

 

[Peacoat]

Go Vintage. See the peacoat dating sticky at the top of the Outerwear thread. If you have questions, ask me.

 

[Doctor Damage]

Sterlingwear is the current contractor for the Navy. On their website they only list the civilian models they sell, but they have the Mil Spec model available for special order. It is the one the company makes for the Navy. Price is $350 and it has the Melton shell.

Is there a difference between their civilian and military spec coats? I mean a real, genuine difference other than tags?

Go vintage.

I would rather have a new coat, rather than one that's been worn already and/or never cleaned and/or in someone's house with moths, bedbugs, etc. I wouldn't buy that Schott coat, though, since the styling is weird and I don't like their tendency to have blended cloths (plus I'm sure there's a markup for the brand name). It looks like Fidelity makes the Schott coats and that might be a cheaper way to get a Schott coat.

 

[Doctor Damage]

Peacoat: Do you know if the old WW2 style peacoats had a slightly larger sweep (circumference around the bottom) than the chest? I was looking at the size chart for Fidelity and their 10 button coats are 1" larger around the bottom than the chest, and looking at the photos you've posted of WW2 coats they certainly look like they might be slightly cone-shaped.

 

[arahat]

Thinking of buying this peacoat on ebay. It has however an unusual tag.
From mr peacoat's sticky thread, it's probably c. 1952 although there are a few discrepancies.

For one, the 'Name', 'Service No.' & 'Size' typeface are all in capitals which is contrary to the sticky thread tag example.
I would appreciate if somebody can shed some light into this.

 

[Peacoat]

Is there a difference between their civilian and military spec coats? I mean a real, genuine difference other than tags?

Yes.

I would rather have a new coat, rather than one that's been worn already and/or never cleaned and/or in someone's house with moths, bedbugs, etc. I wouldn't buy that Schott coat, though, since the styling is weird and I don't like their tendency to have blended cloths (plus I'm sure there's a markup for the brand name). It looks like Fidelity makes the Schott coats and that might be a cheaper way to get a Schott coat.

A trip to the dry cleaners will take care of all those potential problems in a vintage coat.

 

[Peacoat]

Thinking of buying this peacoat on ebay. It has however an unusual tag.
From mr peacoat's sticky thread, it's probably c. 1952 although there are a few discrepancies.

For one, the 'Name', 'Service No.' & 'Size' typeface are all in capitals which is contrary to the sticky thread tag example.
I would appreciate if somebody can shed some light into this.

Both have the N140 prefix in the contract number. The TAP prefix came in around 1953. The one pictured is probably a 1952 coat. But really, that was over 60 years ago. I think a year or so one way or another is close enough.

Not every contract had the exact same tag. Most did, but there are discrepancies. In fact it is my theory that guys in the contract department would slightly change the style of the tag midway through the contract. They knew that 60 or 70 years later, some poor guy would be trying to date a peacoat based on the wording and style of the tag. They wanted to throw some Gremlins in the mix. That is why we have tag discrepancies today. It makes our lives more interesting. PC.

 

[arahat]

Cheers Mr Peacoat. It's always reassuring to hear your views, that sticky dating thread is an outstanding resource btw.

I will probably end up getting that particular coat though I am a true size 38.
Will be getting it so I can layer an A-1 or a heavy RN rollneck under.

I hope that's not such a stupid idea.

 

[Boyo]

I like the idea of layering under a Pea coat, i actually layer a Levis trucker under mine all the time. I think an A-1 would look badass

 

[Peacoat]

Cheers Mr Peacoat. It's always reassuring to hear your views, that sticky dating thread is an outstanding resource btw.

I will probably end up getting that particular coat though I am a true size 38.
Will be getting it so I can layer an A-1 or a heavy RN rollneck under.

I hope that's not such a stupid idea.

If that coat is a true size 40 with 21.25 on the P2P, it will be too big for you. If you want to layer, get a coat that is your measured size, always using the P2P measurement as the guide. If you want a peacoat that fits a little more close to the body, go down one size, using the P2P on the coat as your guide, rather than depending solely on the stated tag size.

For example, my chest measures 42". I wear a size 42 with a 22.25" p2p when I want to layer a sweater, and a size 40, with a p2p of 21.25" when I don't want to wear a sweater.

Good Hunting, PC.

 

[arahat]

^Cheers Mr Peacoat. Good point.

Thank you for your gracious help.

 

[Peacoat]

Cheers Mr Peacoat. It's always reassuring to hear your views, that sticky dating thread is an outstanding resource btw.

I will probably end up getting that particular coat though I am a true size 38.
Will be getting it so I can layer an A-1 or a heavy RN rollneck under.

I hope that's not such a stupid idea.

The hevy RN rollneck is an excellent jumper, and would look the business with a peacoat. Not so sure about the A-1, however.

 

[Doctor Damage]

Some photos which I haven't seen in this thread.



What bugs me about comparing the old WW2 10-button coats and modern 10-button coats is the different button placement on the modern coats. Most if not all manufacturers of modern coats have taken the bottom 8 buttons and moved them downwards, probably to allow the lapels to fold over easier, but visually it means the skirts are too short and modern coats look like they've been shortened by a seamstress or someone. It's bad balance.

 

[arahat]

^ good point. Didn't think too much about the repro skirt ratio to torso length previously.

It's a pity even Buzz chooses to use Melton wool rather than Kersey since they have gone to the extent of using the pre WWII buttons.
Probably a difficulty in sourcing Kersey wool.

Thankfully the supply of vintage ones is still steady.

 

[Doctor Damage]

It's a pity even Buzz chooses to use Melton wool rather than Kersey since they have gone to the extent of using the pre WWII buttons.
Probably a difficulty in sourcing Kersey wool.

Having seen a lot written in this thread about kersey vs melton I looked up both in a detailed book I have on clothing. I don't have the book handy at the moment, but both cloths are apparently constructed in almost the same way and are very similar in appearance. If you look on websites that sell bolts of cloth the two are often lumped together. I think the difference comes in because what is called melton today by peacoat manufacturers (and the USN too, apparently) is actually a lot rougher and thicker than what melton is supposed to be - it's supposed to have a short, soft nap based on a twill weave just like kersey. Certainly the melton traditionally used in British Warm overcoats is a world apart from the rough, tough, almost crude blended cloth used in modern day peacoats, etc.

Thankfully the supply of vintage ones is still steady.

I'm hoping to get a vintage one eventually, but unlike Peacoat for example I won't fall into the trap of buying a dozen!

 

[arahat]

Very interesting doc, I wonder if the repro versions like Buzz's peacoats actually have the same wool used in the vintage kersey peacoats
even if the repro makers calls it a 36 oz. 'Melton' wool.

Considering Buzz Rickson and Real McCoy's penchant for authenticity, it seems like a decent chance that it may be Kersey wool after all.

An example from BiG here:
http://blueingreensoho.com/site/ind...facturer_id=54&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1

 

[Doctor Damage]

Very interesting doc, I wonder if the repro versions like Buzz's peacoats actually have the same wool used in the vintage kersey peacoats even if the repro makers calls it a 36 oz. 'Melton' wool.

Naturally there are different grades of cloth and the melton that Fidelity or Sterlingwear use is not the same melton as what a Savile Row tailor will use. It's probably all melton. Although given that the USN used the terms kersey and melton at the same time (which Peacoat found in his study of tags) suggests that the words are not as distinct as the actual cloth was. Anyway, whether kersey and melton are the same, similar, or different, the older jackets were made from better cloth than the current jackets, a difference which is obvious in photos (to me) and even more so to the touch (to our members who have both).

Considering Buzz Rickson and Real McCoy's penchant for authenticity, it seems like a decent chance that it may be Kersey wool after all.

An example from BiG here:
http://blueingreensoho.com/site/ind...facturer_id=54&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1

That's a great looking coat and it's interesting to see the higher button placement and the stitching around the cuffs, which Peacoat and others have documented. I guess those Rickson and Real McCoy people must do their homework!

 

[Peacoat]

As far as I can tell, the Navy has never interchanged the terms Melton and Kersey. Irrespective of the actual definition of the terms, the Navy has always called the vintage soft wool by the name Kersey, and the coarser wool used in the current issue (and in some pea coats issued in the 70s) by the name Melton. The peacoats issued in the 70s (perhaps only 1973?) that were made of the coarser material, were clearly labeled as Melton wool. The other coats made of the standard (at the time) soft wool were labeled Kersey.

I have never seen the type of wool shell called "Kersey" by the Navy used in any other application. My wife and I do have other jackets and coats made of wool, that are labeled "Melton," and they are the same or similar fabric as that used in the current issue pea coats that are labeled Melton by the Navy. At least one of these Melton coats is an English fox hunting coat from the UK.

So, the term Melton is a standard and well recognized type of wool shell used in many applications, whereas the type of wool called Kersey by the Navy, appears to have been used much less extensively.