The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD

Discussion in 'Hats' started by Dakota Ellison, Jan 25, 2004.

  1. TheOldFashioned

    TheOldFashioned Practically Family

    Messages:
    636
    Location:
    The Great Lakes
    Welcome to TFL, and kudos for taking time to read through thread(s) to try to find information! This is probably the single largest repository of hat information. While other more experienced members are generally most ready and eager to help, reading is highly encouraged and appreciated.

    The "M" stands for misto, which is mixed felt or heathered. If you do a search for "sodio" you will find several other examples of this combination.

    While dating a Borsalino can be somewhat challenging I think you are probably right placing this in the 60s. This is based on the serrated label without "Borsalino" included vertically on the left (which would have placed it earlier), as well as what appears to be a shorter brim width. I'm guessing it's 2" or less, though camera angle can be deceiving. Shorter brim widths are synonymous with more recent vintage hats, as this was the direction fashion was trending in the 60s and 70s.

    This is indeed an Italian market hat. Salvatore Balbi Napoli (Naples) was the retail shop. You will find quite a few hats on here (and in the wild) that originated from this store. Additionally, the size 4-1/2 was used for this market and is associated with the Point sizing system. This translates to U.S. size 7.

    As to value, that's somewhat difficult to assess since it's largely dependent on the taste of the individual end user. For many, vintage Borsalino's are probably considered the gold standard. Most collectors here prefer hats with larger brims, so this would affectionately be called a "stingie brim." Nothing wrong with it per se, just not as popular on the whole. That being said, others prefer these shorter brim styles.

    Somewhat similarly, a heathered finished is less common but not necessarily better or worse than a non-heathered hat. (For reference, I have a heathered stingie brim pork pie style hat made by another manufacturer in my collection, but it's the only one of that type.) Also, a self-felted "ribbon" is somewhat uncommon. Again, different styles for different tastes though I personally would probably consider a heathered finish a little more casual.

    As for size, back in its day it was probably average for its time. This is supported by the fact that many used hats for sale online today fall into the 6-3/4 to 7 size range. Present day average is more like 7-1/4, so if you're looking to sell you will likely have a smaller market.

    This is indeed a somewhat unique hat, so if it fits wear it proud. If you're looking to sell, you are probably looking at a more niche buyer given the characteristics of the hat. That may be good thing, maybe not. What I can say is that you got a heck of a deal for 25¢!
     
  2. deadlyhandsome

    deadlyhandsome I'll Lock Up

    Messages:
    7,288
    Location:
    Central California
    The French Point or Punti size 4 1/2 is closest to a size 7 US. The heathered felt sans liner is nice, and compared to some of the “ribbon” treatments used by Borsalino, the self felt ribbon is nice too. If you like the style and it fits, you have a nice hat.

    The vintage market usually favors hats with more brim and more crown (as most here do), but all that matters is what you like. In these smaller sizes you can often find great bargains, but I doubt you’ll ever get a better deal than you did on this hat.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     
  3. FateOrFaded

    FateOrFaded New in Town

    Messages:
    2
    Thank you all for the info/replies! It is indeed a 2" brim. I found this along with a lot of other vintage hats at the time in a bin at a Salvation Army just tossed around. All the other hats were very old Kentucky Derby style womens hats. Ornate,feathered, big etc. This guy was just shoved to the bottom. I had to rescue them all just because my wife and I love vintage anything.

    My wife loves small brimmed hats so she'll probably be keeping this one instead of myself. I have a big head. :)
     
    TheOldFashioned likes this.
  4. Daniele Tanto

    Daniele Tanto Call Me a Cab

    Messages:
    2,703
    Location:
    Verona - Italia
    No it is not a US size. It is a French way to measure hats. Since Giuseppe Borsalino made his apprentice in Berteil - Paris he tagged its hats in this way.
    4 1/2 is a 56 centimeters, so a 7 in US
    Here the table of hats sizes
    [​IMG]
     
  5. Rosecitymike

    Rosecitymike One of the Regulars

    Messages:
    105
    This is my first Borsa. Posted in the What Hat... thread as well. It’s an extra extra superiore made for a shop in Basel, I’m thinking maybe 60s based on the brim and that tight rear curl. The color is a pretty interesting gray that has undertones of Olive that I think you can appreciate in this photo.

    View attachment 165851
     
  6. Rosecitymike

    Rosecitymike One of the Regulars

    Messages:
    105
    This is my first Borsa. Posted in the What Hat... thread as well. It’s an extra extra superiore made for a shop in Basel, I’m thinking maybe 60s based on the brim and that tight rear curl. The color is a pretty interesting gray that has undertones of Olive that I think you can appreciate in this photo.
    A17B9C75-B90E-42F4-B739-5D484A498888.jpeg
     
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  7. Rosecitymike

    Rosecitymike One of the Regulars

    Messages:
    105
    Sorry for the double post!
     
    deadlyhandsome likes this.
  8. steur

    steur I'll Lock Up

    Messages:
    9,412
    Location:
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    Welcome to the brotherhood! Nice looking hat. Can you post more pictures of it, including of the label underneath the sweatband?
     
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  9. steur

    steur I'll Lock Up

    Messages:
    9,412
    Location:
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    This one came in this week. A nice addition to the collection.
    Borsalino cocisan in palladio colour. Bound brim at 6,5cm and crown 10cm at the center dent. Lightweight hat at 80 grams in the quality extra extra superiore. Might have been a coffin box hat at one point. It was listed as a woman's hat, but it's not.
    Only the oilskin covering of the liner is torn, but other than that it's in excellent condition.
    borsalino palladio cocisan_01.jpg borsalino palladio cocisan_02.jpg borsalino palladio cocisan_03.jpg borsalino palladio cocisan_04.jpg borsalino palladio cocisan_05.jpg borsalino palladio cocisan_06.jpg borsalino palladio cocisan_07.jpg borsalino palladio cocisan_08.jpg borsalino palladio cocisan_09.jpg borsalino palladio cocisan_11.jpg
     
  10. DRB

    DRB One Too Many

    Messages:
    1,620
    Location:
    Florida
    Stefan, I like this one very much. Teach me something... what is "Coffin Box"?
     
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  11. Bill Hughes

    Bill Hughes One Too Many

    Messages:
    1,866
    Location:
    North Texas
    I think he is referring to this type of box that can be seen in the background. The hat would be rolled and placed in the box for shipping.

    0B21AA46-DC3C-4FCE-8E60-4CABBD1A468B.jpeg
     
  12. Steve1857

    Steve1857 Call Me a Cab

    Messages:
    2,405
    Location:
    Denmark
    That's it exactly Bill. Amazing this could be done.

    Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk
     
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  13. DRB

    DRB One Too Many

    Messages:
    1,620
    Location:
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    Thanks Bill and Steve! I can see why they call this Roll Up box a Coffin Box now. So people use them for Montecristi hats and totally destroy them in my opinion.
     
    steur likes this.
  14. steur

    steur I'll Lock Up

    Messages:
    9,412
    Location:
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    What Bill said is correct. Don't know how they got the name coffin box here, but it's the name that is stuck to these gift boxes now. Meant to be taken with you as a souvenir and almost always there's a very lightweight hat inside.

    borsalino caffe extra2_1.jpg borsalino caffe extra_12.jpg
     
  15. Il Cappello

    Il Cappello New in Town

    Messages:
    3
    Because it looks like an old pine box coffin?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG] ]

    This is a great color and a nice looking hat. I'm looking for one just like this. 7 1/4. Just in case anybody knows where I can find one, or in the remote chance somebody wants to part with one. ;)
     
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  16. DRB

    DRB One Too Many

    Messages:
    1,620
    Location:
    Florida
    Considering that it's Roll Up, this hat rolled out pretty good. I never would have guessed.
     
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  17. steur

    steur I'll Lock Up

    Messages:
    9,412
    Location:
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    That is indeed the reason, I think. The colour on this one is called "Caffe". Problem with getting one is that most Ebay auctions don't show the label inside the hat where that name is shown.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
    M Hatman likes this.
  18. steur

    steur I'll Lock Up

    Messages:
    9,412
    Location:
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    The hats themselves never were meant as roll up hats, Dennis. There's a post in this thread somewhere that has a folder for the shop of Cambini of Firenze who seemed to have specialized selling these. O, might as well post the pics again. There's actually a homburg offered in this folder as a hat that could be shipped off in one of these boxes!
    cambini1.JPG cambini2.JPG cambini3.JPG cambini4.JPG cambini5.JPG cambini6.JPG
     
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  19. AbbaDatDeHat

    AbbaDatDeHat I'll Lock Up

    Messages:
    5,531
    Hey Stefan:
    This one looks about a dead ringer for one i have and is Caffe as well. Extremely light weight. I’m curious if your’s has a leather sweatband? Does it have a liner?
    Thanks. Bowen
     
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  20. steur

    steur I'll Lock Up

    Messages:
    9,412
    Location:
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    It does have both a leather sweatband and a liner. Not as lightweight as others at 100 grams, but certainly not a heavyweight either. Qualita extra extra superiore. As far as I know Alan is the only one with a lightweight coffin box hat with a grosgrain sweatband.
    borsalino caffe extra_07.jpg borsalino caffe extra_08.jpg
     

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