Schott Asset

[dudewuttheheck]

Why is it that whenever Schott gets mentioned, a price tag has to be brought up? RMC, Freewheelers, etc. all sell strictly off-the-rack jackets of the same or lesser quality for three grands or more, and people are buying them. I believe that Schott, a company with a little more history (about one hundred years more of history) than whatever Japanese brand, could be asking a lot more money for their jackets, especially this one. Jackets the above mentioned brands made a living knocking off.
Not to mention Schott at least updates their line every year and tries out new and different stuff, rather than just pumping out the same old repro year after year.

I mean, Jesus Christ, Iron Heart sells that OTR cafe racer of theirs for $1400! If... Iron Hearts thinks their jacket is worth $1400, I strongly believe that Schott has every right to ask $1100 for an objectively nicer product.

That's the problem. They are not of lesser quality at all. They are of superior quality and craftsmanship. Also, you are exaggerating the price. They are not even 3 grand. I have seen Schott jackets in person and the leather and stitching has never been impressive. Not once.

 

[Seb Lucas]

I have owned a couple of recent Schotts and they were very impressive, well made jackets on par with my Aero and Johnson Leathers and local hand crafted bike jackets. I even thought the Schott steer hide was great. Precise stitching and immaculate construction. But I agree that as a company Schott are all over the place marketing wise and their sizing for me (six foot two) is not ideal. I like a longer jacket. If I were five ten I would probably have settled on my Schott 641XX out of Japan cafe racer as possibly my favourite leather jacket.

 

[Monitor]

I have owned a couple of recent Schotts and they were very impressive, well made jackets on par with my Aero and Johnson Leathers and local hand crafted bike jackets. I even thought the Schott steer hide was great. Precise stitching and immaculate construction. But I agree that as a company Schott are all over the place marketing wise and their sizing for me (six foot two) is not ideal. I like a longer jacket. If I were five ten I would probably have settled on my Schott 641XX out of Japan cafe racer as possibly my favourite leather jacket.

View attachment 100481

Of all the jackets I've had, Confederate x Schott is pretty much the only one that remained in my closet ever since I bought it. While I have had disputably "better" jackets, in reality,

I actually would've prefered the 614XX - well, at least until now, now I just want that Asset and that's all I want from the jacket world - but the CM1 is just a perfect CR for what I imagine a perfect CR should be like. As for the quality of the make, Schott's high end line, such as my CM1 is unmatched. I've never seen a jacket that was noticeably better than that one. The stitching, construction, etc. is perfect in the truest meaning of the word and the hh is seriously Vanson grade.

I have seen Schott jackets in person and the leather and stitching has never been impressive. Not once.

Well, there you have it then on the first page of this thread. The cafe racer that makes entire Japanese hipster biker repro market seem like Wilson's.

 

[Monitor]

I agree that the japanese brands are charging way too much for their leather jackets. I think there are a few reasons for this:

a) most of these brands (RMC, Freewheelers etc.) are not really "leather brands" but rather a "fashion brand" (of course a more niche fashion market and not the typical gucci/armani/dunhill sense). One of the upcharge is for their so called branding.

b) made in japan factor - I believe some actually thinks that since it's made in japan the attention to detail must be great and spot on. This is another reason for charging the price they ask.

c) their main market is the japanese and asian markets - for these markets there aren't that many quality leather brands (aside from existing local brands) that produce the style with the fit that they think fits them better (for e.g. slimmer sleeves, shorter body lengths etc.). Of course one knows that after some research, many vendors not from japan can also make a great jacket that fits any body type. But for the more casual person in Japan or other Asian markets who wants a good quality leather jacket that fits them well, to them the options might not be as many, not to mention many local shops might not carry other jackets from other vendors, which limit the options from trying them out. For example, in Hong Kong, if you want to get an Aero leather jacket, you can only get one online I believe, or unless you fly to taiwan or japan to try out some in person (if they have them in stock). I don't think you can even try a schott leather jacket out in Hong Kong.

The Iron Heart cafe racer is crazy. I don't understand their mind set as to how they think they can compete with the other manufacturers, even in Japan (for e.g. I beleive RMC sells their Buco J 100 around the same price), not to mention Aero, Eastman, Thedi all can make great cafe racers with great details. But I do see a few ppl owning them, though, so I guess the price they charge works.

Excellent post!

 

[Edward]

Why is it that whenever Schott gets mentioned, a price tag has to be brought up? RMC, Freewheelers, etc. all sell strictly off-the-rack jackets of the same or lesser quality for three grands or more, and people are buying them.

Plenty of people are still buying the Schott too, I imagine! Thing is, though, that Schott prices have been shooting up in recent years - at least, they have here in the UK. A 618 at £350 was a great deal. Now they're more or less the same price as an Aero in some places, well.... Schott in general here in the UK in my experience are now pretty much the same price as Vanson; I've always been more impressed with the Vanson quality.

I believe that Schott, a company with a little more history (about one hundred years more of history) than whatever Japanese brand, could be asking a lot more money for their jackets, especially this one. Jackets the above mentioned brands made a living knocking off.

Some markets do seem to attach a premium to intangible features which have nil impact on the quality of the end product itself - factors like country of origin, being "the real thing", "heritage" and so on. It can certainly be a very successful strategy, lifestyle marketing: brands like Harley have done very well out of it over the years. Seems, though, that for many people in the leather jacket niche other ideas have taken over and there isn't the same value placed on somebody having made X since Y if another company is considered to do it better. The denimhead market is probably even moreso this way than the leather crowd by now: how many serious denim people still wear regular Levis by now?

Perceived value is a difficult animal to pin down, really. With SChott beng so well known for their midmarket prices and mainstream fashion-targeted product, I don't know if they could raise their prices all that much without the market deciding it was "too much" for what they are.... it's all so subjective.

Not to mention Schott at least updates their line every year and tries out new and different stuff, rather than just pumping out the same old repro year after year.

Again, though, that all comes down to what the market want. Schott aren't really chasing the same people as want an Aero or an ELC or a Freewheelers or whatever.... they're a mainstream fashion brand chasing a mainstream market, more Alpha than Aero in terms of what they want to do. The fashion market values novelty, the classic, retro crowd less so.

I mean, Jesus Christ, Iron Heart sells that OTR cafe racer of theirs for $1400! If... Iron Hearts thinks their jacket is worth $1400, I strongly believe that Schott has every right to ask $1100 for an objectively nicer product.

Oh, I'd say there's precious little objectivity involved once we get as deep as this into our niche. Absolutely, though, Schott can ask whatever price they think the market will bear - whether they can get that is up to the market. Again, I doubt the people buying into Iron Heart are the same folks that are likely to want a Schott: in this game, often people want the obscure, cottage-industry experience and they expect something small-scale and obscure rather than a big, fashion house name. In the fashion world, that'll be different.

I wouldn't hesitate to spend money on this jacket

Almost a dead ringer for the Aero King of the Road model (though the Aero has 'pillion pockets', which this one lacks). Is it a repop of one of the old Durable jackets? I don't have my reference material to hand, and can't recall if it was Schott or Durable who tended to make d-pockets this way - as memory serves, Buco *always* had a horizontal chest pocket over the D.... at least all those I've seen.

Over the years I’ve bought some truly unremarkable vintage Schott jackets that quickly ended up on the resell pile. The leather felt cheap and plasticky, the arms were too short, the materials used were just barely average.

I've only owned one but handled many over the years. They've always felt to me like the first rung on getting a decent jacket without major compromises, but here in the UK at least there's always also been the sense that there's a significant price premium attached to the brand and the made in USA elements. It's all subjective, of course: there are those to whom those things will matter; to me, they don't.

But the problem I have with today’s Schott is that, in my humble opinion, they seem to be a faceless jacket factory churning out massive amounts of product, their brand somewhat tainted by some truly embarrassing mall styles, and a line of useless fashion “motorcycle jackets,”( ie. burgundy suede Perfecto anyone?) With the backbone of their catalog being the pricey mediocre legacy jackets. Kind of a shotgun approach to merchandising. Just my observation.

Yes, lately they have some more upscale offerings in the Schott catalog, and if these off-the-rack jackets fit then perhaps they are a good value. But for me Schott jackets have always been hit or miss. And the higher price point seems hard to justify when I can safely order, at nearly the same cost, a jacket that is custom made by a vendor focused on a higher grade of craftsmanship, materials, and fit of each individual jacket… like Aero or Langlitz.

This goes back to what I was saying about brand perception and marketability. Schott undoubtedly do some very nice stuff as well, but because the brand is also so readily associated with cheaper fashion jackets in a flimsy lamb (for example) by many, it is definitely harder for them to shake that image when trying to sell to a different, hardcore crowd. It all rather reminds me of when Toyota created the Lexus brand in order to move into a higher price-band market, because they didn't feel they could sell an "expensive Toyota" to that market. Schott are perceived by many as a mid-price brand, which is going to make it harder to sell more expensive, premium pieces. It's all marketing psychology.

I agree that the japanese brands are charging way too much for their leather jackets. I think there are a few reasons for this:

a) most of these brands (RMC, Freewheelers etc.) are not really "leather brands" but rather a "fashion brand" (of course a more niche fashion market and not the typical gucci/armani/dunhill sense). One of the upcharge is for their so called branding.

b) made in japan factor - I believe some actually thinks that since it's made in japan the attention to detail must be great and spot on. This is another reason for charging the price they ask.

c) their main market is the japanese and asian markets - for these markets there aren't that many quality leather brands (aside from existing local brands) that produce the style with the fit that they think fits them better (for e.g. slimmer sleeves, shorter body lengths etc.). Of course one knows that after some research, many vendors not from japan can also make a great jacket that fits any body type. But for the more casual person in Japan or other Asian markets who wants a good quality leather jacket that fits them well, to them the options might not be as many, not to mention many local shops might not carry other jackets from other vendors, which limit the options from trying them out. For example, in Hong Kong, if you want to get an Aero leather jacket, you can only get one online I believe, or unless you fly to taiwan or japan to try out some in person (if they have them in stock). I don't think you can even try a schott leather jacket out in Hong Kong.

The Iron Heart cafe racer is crazy. I don't understand their mind set as to how they think they can compete with the other manufacturers, even in Japan (for e.g. I beleive RMC sells their Buco J 100 around the same price), not to mention Aero, Eastman, Thedi all can make great cafe racers with great details. But I do see a few ppl owning them, though, so I guess the price they charge works.

All comes down to what the market is prepared to pay, in the end - whatever that market is. None of these brands would still be around if nobody was buying, so they must all be convincing somebody they're worth whatever they're charging.

 

[Monitor]

Almost a dead ringer for the Aero King of the Road model (though the Aero has 'pillion pockets', which this one lacks). Is it a repop of one of the old Durable jackets? I don't have my reference material to hand, and can't recall if it was Schott or Durable who tended to make d-pockets this way - as memory serves, Buco *always* had a horizontal chest pocket over the D.... at least all those I've seen.

It's a Beck 333. Schott was making these for Beck and I think they eventually acquired the rights for this style. Some Japanese brands also make a repro of this jacket but for all intents and purposes, the original belongs to Schott.

Aero King of the Road is based entirely on Sears/Oakbrook/Hercules motorcycle jacket.

 

[ton312]

OMG
@ton312 you NEED to do j106 v2.0 in cherry!!!!

I'm not worthy. But a Cherry and black two-tone? That's something to think about.

 

[tropicalbob]

This is a weird thread. I just get through reading through one guy's comments and agreeing absolutely with him, and then I read the next, diametrically opposed, point-of-view and I agree with him too. Must be getting wishy-washy.

 

[ton312]

This is a weird thread. I just get through reading through one guy's comments and agreeing absolutely with him, and then I read the next, diametrically opposed, point-of-view and I agree with him too. Must be getting wishy-washy.

LOL. That's the beauty of this joint!

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Of all the jackets I've had, Confederate x Schott is pretty much the only one that remained in my closet ever since I bought it. While I have had disputably "better" jackets, in reality,

Well, there you have it then on the first page of this thread. The cafe racer that makes entire Japanese hipster biker repro market seem like Wilson's.

Personally, I find that jacket posted on the first page to be lackluster, especially compared to many of your own jackets that you have shared here. I don't like the angle of the chest pockets, I don't like the color of the stitching, I cannot stand the hardware color, and the leather looks awful to my eyes. To be brutally honest, it kind of looks like a Fisher Price 'my first biker jacket' with all the wannabe cool details. It pales in comparison to jackets that you yourself own in my personal view.

I find it very funny that someone claimed that the Japanese brands are fashion brands while Schott is very clearly a fashion brand themselves.

Something I have to point out is that it is rumored that ALL of the Japanese brands listed apart from Iron Heart and Flat Head have their jackets made in the same factory. You could see this as good or bad, but I have to say, handling jackets from all of the Japanese brands (having owned them, tried them on, and visited Japan this year) that the construction quality is superior to Schott. If they are all made in the same factory, it would make sense given the consistency of the quality of these jackets. I am NOT saying that they are more durable. There is a difference. I am sure that a Schott is every bit as durable and having finally handled a Vanson recently, I cannot deny that they are absolute tanks and I actually kind of want one now.

Let us also keep in mind that Shinki is indeed the most expensive hide used on any of the jackets that we on this forum discuss. I know many do not love it, but you cannot deny the simple fact of its cost which certainly has something to do with the prices of the Japanese jackets.

I will agree that there is something to the point of them charging more because of their branding. Freewheeler's leather jacket prices have absolutely skyrocketed in recent years to the point where they are not worth the asking price anymore. Anyone who has been here a while knows that I would have never said anything like this previously, but their jacket prices have gotten ridiculous.

I agree that the Iron Heart jacket is ridiculous. It is not made as well as the jackets from Flat Head or RMC, FW, or Rainbow Country. Heck, I think Aero makes a nicer jacket that that IH jacket especially given how ugly the leather is on it. However, what you have to understand is that in the raw denim world, Iron Heart is a golden god to many with an impeachable reputation and the type of cult following that mirrors the following Aero has here. Let me put it this way, Iron Heart fans act the same way as many are acting in this thread right now: claiming what they like to be superior to something else for no reason at all.

Hopefully it is plain to see that I do not entirely disagree on the issue of the pricing of Japanese brands. I also agree that some are not as well made as some claim, with that Iron Heart jacket being a prime example. Also, I do not think that Japanese jackets are actually the end all be all of jackets as much as you may think that. I have more respect for Good Wear and Himel Bros than any of the Japanese makers. Heck, I just bought another Himel instead of a Japanese brand so all of my eggs are not in Japan's basket.

P.S. I know I have strong words on this, but I do not mean any negativity towards any person taking part in this discussion.

 

[ProteinNerd]

@Monitor if you ever decide to take the plunge on the Asset, please give me first shot at your Confederate jacket [emoji6]

 

[Harris HTM]

and the leather looks awful to my eyes

If I am not mistaken this is Horween CXL steer, usually never described as awful. Personally I drool at the photo's posted.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

If I am not mistaken this is Horween CXL steer, usually never described as awful. Personally I drool at the photo's posted.

I have heard it described as such, just not on this board. I do not think it is bad leather. I simply think it does not look good here.

 

[Harris HTM]

I have heard it described as such, just not on this board. I do not think it is bad leather. I simply think it does not look good here.

To be honest I am no leather specialist nor do I visit any other forum. I guess people must have a reason to describe it as awful. I never owned nor handled a cxl steer, only cxl fqhh which I would never describe as awful.

 

[ton312]

To my eye, the thing that the Japanese makers do very well (and work quite hard at) is creating an image. Looking at the websites of Schott, Aero, Vanson and worst of all Johnson Leathers...you can clearly see there's not a whole lot of effort put fourth there.
Conversely, the folks from Japan work very hard indeed at cultivating the vintage Americana vibe to the max. The goosenecked '58 fat tire panhead in the background, massive chain wallet, vintage open face helmet painted just so... All shot at sunset...they are selling the image as much as the jacket. Maybe even more so!!! But it clearly resonates with buyers. I've said this before and it makes me chuckle every time...but until fairly recently the only thing Japan made close to leather was vinyl!! Those suduco jackets from the 70's and 80's. Now...they make the most expensive leather on the planet. Go figure.
The Schott jacket in question is cool and I'm sure it's much nicer than what they put up on their site. Of course I'm horribly biased but Horween black CXL is an outstanding hide. It's Rhino skin folded over and sewn three layers thick. Both my Bootlegger and j106 are CXL steer. I think the photos I've posted speak for themselves. It's not everyone's bag but it's Schotts fault for not doing it justice in photos. I could do better with my damn iPhone.

 

[Harris HTM]

To my eye, the thing that the Japanese makers do very well (and work quite hard at) is creating an image. Looking at the websites of Schott, Aero, Vanson and worst of all Johnson Leathers...you can clearly see there's not a whole lot of effort put fourth there.
Conversely, the folks from Japan work very hard indeed at cultivating the vintage Americana vibe to the max. The goosenecked '58 fat tire panhead in the background, massive chain wallet, vintage open face helmet painted just so... All shot at sunset...they are selling the image as much as the jacket. Maybe even more so!!! But it clearly resonates with buyers. I've said this before and it makes me chuckle every time...but until fairly recently the only thing Japan made close to leather was vinyl!! Those suduco jackets from the 70's and 80's. Now...they make the most expensive leather on the planet. Go figure.
The Schott jacket in question is cool and I'm sure it's much nicer than what they put up on their site. Of course I'm horribly biased but Horween black CXL is an outstanding hide. It's Rhino skin folded over and sewn three layers thick. Both my Bootlegger and j106 are CXL steer. I think the photos I've posted speak for themselves. It's not everyone's bag but it's Schotts fault for not doing it justice in photos. I could do better with my damn iPhone.

It is when I take a look to your bootleggers Ton that I regret that the 4 custom aero's I ordered the last years are fqhh and vicenza's. I need a cxl steer cafe racer, lined in harris tweed.

 

[ton312]

It is when I take a look to your bootleggers Ton that I regret that the 4 custom aero's I ordered the last years are fqhh and vicenza's. I need a cxl steer cafe racer, lined in harris tweed.

The only palpable difference to me is weight and grain. The steer has a bit more of both. Which I like. A lot.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

To my eye, the thing that the Japanese makers do very well (and work quite hard at) is creating an image. Looking at the websites of Schott, Aero, Vanson and worst of all Johnson Leathers...you can clearly see there's not a whole lot of effort put fourth there.
Conversely, the folks from Japan work very hard indeed at cultivating the vintage Americana vibe to the max. The goosenecked '58 fat tire panhead in the background, massive chain wallet, vintage open face helmet painted just so... All shot at sunset...they are selling the image as much as the jacket. Maybe even more so!!! But it clearly resonates with buyers. I've said this before and it makes me chuckle every time...but until fairly recently the only thing Japan made close to leather was vinyl!! Those suduco jackets from the 70's and 80's. Now...they make the most expensive leather on the planet. Go figure.
The Schott jacket in question is cool and I'm sure it's much nicer than what they put up on their site. Of course I'm horribly biased but Horween black CXL is an outstanding hide. It's Rhino skin folded over and sewn three layers thick. Both my Bootlegger and j106 are CXL steer. I think the photos I've posted speak for themselves. It's not everyone's bag but it's Schotts fault for not doing it justice in photos. I could do better with my damn iPhone.

That is an excellent point. Take a look at the recent Schott/3Sixteen collab. That jacket sold out in minutes because the photos were gorgeous and were shot by professional photographers with a model and a classic muscle car (a black '67 Chevelle or Pontiac was what it looked like, but I just know that it was not a fastback) and even though I liked the details more, I still wasn't a fan. It sold like Beatles tickets, though.

That said, having handled Japanese jackets, I can say that the sewing is neater and cleaner on them. It's not just the marketing.

 

[Monitor]

All fair @dudewuttheheck . It's just me. I think of this jacket as a natural evolution of the traditional cafe racer style. Which this is. Every detail... No, not detail but rather every feature of this jacket is in keeping with the style without sacrificing a single feature that is an integral part of it. I don't personally care for historical accuracy as much as I do for the general... vibe if you will, of the thing and that, combined with extreme durability and functionality - aspects I find most important - tell me that this jacket has it all. It's still a true American cafe racer jacket. The real deal.

And that's all I want.

Don't know how to explain any better.

I believe that as a Schott original, this jacket is going to be a collectors piece in a few decades, just like Buco today. . . while repro will always be just that - a repro.

Anyway, yeah, as @ton312 says, the Japanese sell the image. The cosplay. Which they've turned into caricature of itself.
Looking at the old photos of bikers of the 40's, 50's, even 60's... Man, hard to find a single bloke that's dressed like what you see advertised on all these Japanese, and more and more US/European sites selling "heritage" clothes. Suspenders, rolled cuffs, shiny engineer boots, not to mention tattoo's and stuff etc... I honestly don't believe anyone outside of The Wild One set dressed like that. Especially not for the price tag they've hanged onto this stuff which makes it all so ironic it's not even funny.

That's why I love this Schott. It speaks to me. And it says I don't need to cosplay.

 

[Monitor]

@Monitor if you ever decide to take the plunge on the Asset, please give me first shot at your Confederate jacket [emoji6]

I'm actually seriously considering this Schott. Like, I'm seriously considering it. Promised myself never again but this has it all. Literally all...