Morning dress - white waistcoat and bow tie

mrU · Nov 29, 2015

Would a morning dress with wing collar, white waistcoat and white bow tie (and of course grey striped trousers and black morning coat) still be considered a morning dress? I have found no "rules" against white waistcoat, wing collar or white bow tie.

Your thoughts would be much appreciated.

Edward · Nov 29, 2015

It would look like a dreadful mishmash of evening and daywear, imo. A wing collar is appropriate with a formal cravat (ascot), but for daywear I should think it would look odd with a bowtie. A regular turnover collar with a four in hand i much more common. I've never seen a white waistcoat with morning dress - traditionally, it tends to be buff, dove grey or poweder blue (or, indeed, black fro very formal funerals and the likes). Of course, you'll see all sorts these days as modern fashion hits the market.... it's probably a matter of personal opinion, to some fair degree, at what point it stop being true morning dress.

Richard Warren · Nov 30, 2015

I beleive Mrs. Post wrote in a book in 1910 that a white vest is acceptable.

I think a white tie would be unfortunate
.

F. J. · Nov 30, 2015

mrU said:
Would a morning dress with wing collar, white waistcoat and white bow tie (and of course grey striped trousers and black morning coat) still be considered a morning dress? I have found no "rules" against white waistcoat, wing collar or white bow tie.

Your thoughts would be much appreciated.

You’ll be fine if you colour the bow tie, as white ties are traditionally only worn with, well, White Tie, as in “Top Hat, White Tie, and Tails.” It also helps to contrast with the white waistcoat.

At one time it was fashionable to wear bow ties with stiff-fronted shirts and wing collars with morning dress, but the tie was never white. It was seen off and on from the late 19th century until the 1940’s.
The following two illustrations of this are from the bow tie page on the Morning Dress Guide (images appears to date from the 1930’s):

bow-tie-with-polka-dots-stiff-detachable-collar-with-a-morning-coat-344x400.jpg

(Note white waistcoat.)

Here’s a young Sir Winston Churchill at the turn of the century (note that frock coats were commonly worn with morning dress until the 1920’s):

President William McKinley would often wear white waistcoats with morning dress; in fact, he is depicted wearing one in that famous drawing of his assassination in September, 1901. As most events that require morning dress are in the summer, a white waistcoat does make sense.

Here is President McKinley and Vice-President Hobart, New Jersey, summer 1899:

And here is future Vice-President Charles W. Fairbanks in 1904, with white waistcoat:

And again Mr. Fairbanks with President Roosevelt, both in morning dress:

As for modern applications, here is an image from the home page of the Morning Dress Guide (white waistcoat on the rear gentleman):

Dirk Wainscotting · Nov 30, 2015

How is it possible to see if those waistcoats are white or just light coloured? It is summer after all and the reflected light lightens them still further.

Patrick Hall · Dec 1, 2015

Point taken for the photos of McKinley et al, but the person behind the Prince is almost certainly wearing white. If it were buff, there'd be a yellowish hue, even granted reflection.

Edward · Dec 1, 2015

You mean the bottom photo with Charlie Windsor? Yes, that's definitely a whitre waistcoat on thed guy behin him - though it is, of course, a modern photo so not entirely reflective of the standards of the 30s, say. I'd say some of the one in the B&W photos are certainly a buff colour. Lighter yellow hues will look whie in B&W - this is why Gibson guitars came up with the "TV Yellow" finish in 1959: a mid-yellow colour, it was designed to look like a white guitar on black and white film (especially television, hence the name). Guitars which were actually white tended to cause problems with glare from studio lights, or look washed out. (Not a million miles away in concept from the idea of wearing Midnight Blue so it would look "blacker than black" under artificial lights).

Oddly, that white one looks more like cotton t my eye than the more usual linen... Likely at a Sumerf Race meeting, and lighter than the usual. Clearly not the most formal of formal occasions, or Charles wouldn't be in the less formal, three-piece grey morning suit. (There's a great story about the future Edward VIII being thrown out of the royal box at Ascot by his father, for daring to turn up so "informally" dressed.) It's a look I rather like - harkens back to when 'morning dress' was the equivalent of the lounge suit now. I did briefly own a set by Moss Bros (ex-rental), but it was too small for me and never worn.

F. J. · Dec 1, 2015

Dirk Wainscotting said:
How is it possible to see if those waistcoats are white or just light coloured? It is summer after all and the reflected light lightens them still further.

Patrick Hall said:
Point taken for the photos of McKinley et al, but the person behind the Prince is almost certainly wearing white. If it were buff, there'd be a yellowish hue, even granted reflection.

Everything I’ve ever read about McKinley described his penchant for wearing white waistcoats and red carnations.

As for Mr. Fairbanks, here is a light-coloured waistcoat for contrast:

Charles_W_Fairbanks_by_Harris_%26_Ewing.jpg

Edward said:
You mean the bottom photo with Charlie Windsor? Yes, that's definitely a whitre waistcoat on thed guy behin him - though it is, of course, a modern photo so not entirely reflective of the standards of the 30s, say. [...]

What about the fellow that appears to be from a 1930’s illustration?

F. J. said:
[...]

(Note white waistcoat.)
[...]

Richard Warren · Dec 2, 2015

I beleive that in her 1910 book mentioned above Mrs. Post makes specific reference to white pique.

Edward · Dec 2, 2015

F. J. said:
Everything I’ve ever read about McKinley described his penchant for wearing white waistcoats and red carnations.

Thst's the sort of record that's really helpful with black and white photos. It would be interesting to know why that detail was recorded - did he consider it more correct, or was it simpyl a signature look? If the latter, was it possible for it to be so because it wasn't the run of the mill?

What about the fellow that appears to be from a 1930’s illustration?

That one is clearly deliberate, yes. I should have been clearer - I'm not suggesting it didn't happen, merely raising the question as to how common it was. With the illustration particularly, we're into the old high fashion concept v what folks really wore territory. Which again is not to say it didn't happen, but leaves open the question of how common it was. The fashion plates are certainly great evidence that it could have been considered a fashionable option at a particular pointg in time. I think that's something that's very easy to forget - I know I do it all the time - that there is such a thing as fashion even in what we/I tend to think of as a more rigid 'dress code' with 'rules'. Actually, there's more scope for that with morning dress than evening wear, by far.

F. J. · Dec 2, 2015

Edward said:
Thst's the sort of record that's really helpful with black and white photos. It would be interesting to know why that detail was recorded - did he consider it more correct, or was it simpyl a signature look? If the latter, was it possible for it to be so because it wasn't the run of the mill? [...]

Apparently Mrs. McKinley liked it. Isn’t that enough?

Patrick Hall · Dec 3, 2015

To the OP's question, certainly enough provenance has been established here to justify wearing a white waistcoat with morning dress, which is news to me! I thought buff and dove gray were the only really acceptable colors. As has been noted, it would be wise to choose something other than a white bowtie for neckwear.

Edward · Dec 3, 2015

Worth also noting that even if white, the waistcoat will be a markedly different cut than for full formal evening wear, so one couldn't use the same one interchangeably for day / evening wear.

Patrick Hall · Dec 3, 2015

Edward said:
Worth also noting that even if white, the waistcoat will be a markedly different cut than for full formal evening wear, so one couldn't use the same one interchangeably for day / evening wear.

Hadn't thought about that, but very true. A low-cut waistcoat won't do.

GHT · Dec 8, 2015

For New Year's Eve, my clever lady has skillfully crafted a vintage waistcoat for the MC. Problem is, she is unsure how much to charge. It took about 15 hours to make, but as my wife says, if it was the third or fourth one that she had made, she could have done it in about 10 hours. Question is: How much to charge? Total cost of pattern, material & notions was close on £30. I'm suggesting £80, given that if was ten hours labour @ £10 per hour plus £30 for material and bits and bobs, equals £130, but for a close friend who has helped us out in the past, 80 pounds is not extravagant, is it? Wifey thinks that's a bit steep. so, over to you and your opinion, it would be appreciated to know what you would pay:

stratcat · Dec 8, 2015

GHT said:
For New Year's Eve, my clever lady has skillfully crafted a vintage waistcoat for the MC. Problem is, she is unsure how much to charge. It took about 15 hours to make, but as my wife says, if it was the third or fourth one that she had made, she could have done it in about 10 hours. Question is: How much to charge? Total cost of pattern, material & notions was close on £30. I'm suggesting £80, given that if was ten hours labour @ £10 per hour plus £30 for material and bits and bobs, equals £130, but for a close friend who has helped us out in the past, 80 pounds is not extravagant, is it? Wifey thinks that's a bit steep. so, over to you and your opinion, it would be appreciated to know what you would pay:

It's a difficult call. We do tend to undervalue peoples time and so I don't think you would be overcharging at the £80 but it all depends on how 'close' your close friend is and how much that friendship is worth. I think the work on the waistcoat is superb. Why not explain the cost and time involved to your friend and ask them to pay what they think it's worth. If they come up with a figure more than the £80 then you could decline that amount to your original £80 and everyone is happy. If they only come up with a bit over the cost of materials put it down to experience and consider it a gift to your friends (karma and all that...).

EstherWeis · Dec 8, 2015

I completely understand her situation. I've been in them many times.

The thing is that she put in the hours and Material.
And that craftsmanship is worth every single penny.

Try to think of it like this;
If he would have that made by a tailor, how much would he pay?

£ 10 an hr is a very low hourly cost, so he has a very nice discount there..
Most tailors charge €40 an hr ( here in Belgium and some other countries i've been to)

If he appreciates the work she put in and he really loves the waistcoat I'm sure he won't mind paying that price.

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GHT · Dec 9, 2015

stratcat said:
It's a difficult call. We do tend to undervalue peoples time and so I don't think you would be overcharging at the £80 but it all depends on how 'close' your close friend is and how much that friendship is worth. I think the work on the waistcoat is superb. Why not explain the cost and time involved to your friend and ask them to pay what they think it's worth. If they come up with a figure more than the £80 then you could decline that amount to your original £80 and everyone is happy. If they only come up with a bit over the cost of materials put it down to experience and consider it a gift to your friends (karma and all that...).

Wise words Stratcat, you certainly can never put a monetary price on friendship, there was a happy outcome though. As you suggested, we spoke to our friend explaining our dilemma. He happily paid £80, admitting that he'd had a professional quote of more than £200, adding that he had seen the professional's work and, in his opinion, my wife's work was equal, if not better.

EstherWeis said:
I completely understand her situation. I've been in them many times. The thing is that she put in the hours and Material. And that craftsmanship is worth every single penny. Try to think of it like this; If he would have that made by a tailor, how much would he pay? £ 10 an hr is a very low hourly cost, so he has a very nice discount there. Most tailors charge €40 an hr ( here in Belgium and some other countries i've been to) If he appreciates the work she put in and he really loves the waistcoat I'm sure he won't mind paying that price.

Your input was much appreciated Esther, she has taken on board all that you say, and in future she will quote a price before the work is done. In the case of a waistcoat like this, I can ask a professional for a quotation and if she can match that price, she will do the commission, if not, she will recommend the professional. £40 @ hr. is sensible but some may baulk at that, but if when quoting, if she keeps that figure in mind, it will help her structure future quotes.
Thanks again to both of you.

stratcat · Dec 9, 2015

GHT said:
Wise words Stratcat, you certainly can never put a monetary price on friendship, there was a happy outcome though. As you suggested, we spoke to our friend explaining our dilemma. He happily paid £80, admitting that he'd had a professional quote of more than £200, adding that he had seen the professional's work and, in his opinion, my wife's work was equal, if not better.

Your input was much appreciated Esther, she has taken on board all that you say, and in future she will quote a price before the work is done. In the case of a waistcoat like this, I can ask a professional for a quotation and if she can match that price, she will do the commission, if not, she will recommend the professional. £40 @ hr. is sensible but some may baulk at that, but if when quoting, if she keeps that figure in mind, it will help her structure future quotes.
Thanks again to both of you.

I'm glad you got a good outcome and a further qualification of your wife's excellent handy-work.

Dirk Wainscotting · Dec 9, 2015

Well...I charge 225 euros for trousers and that's a starting price for mostly machine-made with regular details. When it's mostly handwork and different details the price goes up. I made someone a linen waistcoat two summers back and it was 185 euros. I don't think 80 nicker is too much for a handmade product.

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