Reproductions: How do you know they're accurate?

Dinerman said:

Ralph's people may fudge the era of their repros in their marketing vs. what they've based it on, may do a lot of never-was simulacra, and may produce a lot of their things in China, but I'll give them this- they know their source material and buy a bunch of my originals.

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I own a Ralph jacket .

This RRl leather jacket is super comfortable & rugged with no side pockets & the back is one piece.
Not speaking for all their jackets, but I was lucky to find a “Ralphie” with everthing that I like
that is very close to an original at a very affordable price.

Besides one original A-2 which I sold,
I have leather jackets by Aero, Goodwear & Eastman to make comparisons.

I have said this here a few times, my most comfortable A2 was an 80s Willis & Geiger! It was not accurate, rayon lining, the throat latch would not close if my life depended on it, but it felt great. Why did I sell it? The experts told me I need an exact copy, dumb me for listing!

ButteMT61 said:

Well, @tmitchell59 - originals are harder to find in wearable condition. Even harder to find in my size. And even though many folks out there today love old things, most folks probably don't like wearing old (used) clothing - even jackets. The fact that so many buy repops says there's interest in the style, but let's be honest, even if you do find something, it might be fragile, it might smell, or have other things making it undesirable to all but a small group.
This forum is great. Just the discussion in this thread is great reading.

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Hi all, I have been saying this for years so it's nice to read someone else thinking on the same likes I have friends who would not be seen dead in second hand clothing no matter what credibility it may have at vintage gatherings we attend, so that is where the 'correct look' comes in to the picture. Not everyone wants a vintage Borsollino with a manky sweat band and inner crown covered in 60 year old hair grease or a B3 jacket stained from someone els's sweaty armpits.
I have often found that the ladies though, more often that the men tend to look beyond the faults, if it can be repaired repair it, if it smells a bit sweaty and can be washed, wash it, though I did see one young lady throw a dress at the vendor with a few choice words when she found a used tissue in the pocket of a garment!
Re-enactors often strive to look as original as possible, but I have seen the occasion where a look of 100% original gear is a big fail simply because wearing 70 year old clothing that looks 70 years old looks odd, especially if the rest of the team are wearing near 'new' clothing. I suppose it's a bit of an ego trip to pose around in a 70 year old A2 or Army steel helmet if you have the money, but to accurately represent an era? It just looks wrong(to me).
Lastly, film work. One area where correct period looking clothing should be accurately represented. Though I say this, I do think a good story can override smaller faults in the wardrobe department.

This is a fascinating discussion and a question I have found myself struggling with.

I'm a big fan of G-1/M-422s, having been a Marine sort for much of my life. But, when I finally decided after many years to go whole hog on a perfect repro of a "Golden Era" naval flier's jacket, I ran into some unexpected challenges.

My first high end repro was my Eastman G-1. The first thing I noticed was the very stiff leather and smooth finish of the goatskin. When the jacket first began breaking in, it tended to fold and crease sharply. This concerned me in that I thought that the jacket might not look as a good old broken in G-1 would have, had I been issued it in 1950 (before I was born of course).

Now, I had seen a lot of G-1s in my day and I knew what a real one looked like. But the oldest instructor or commanding officer that I had ever known still probably only had a jacket from the late '60s or '70s. So, while I was concerned that my ELC wasn't going to look like a G-1 from the '50s, what I was actually concerned about was that it wasn't going to look like what I THOUGHT a G-1 from the '50s was going to look like...and that's not the same thing.

Similarly, when I put my cash on the barrel head for a GW M-422a a few years ago, I told Mr Chapman that I wanted as close to a wartime jacket as I could get. However, as we exchanged e-mails and styles and choices and such, I noted that the pockets on the style that I had chosen were very widely spaced which looked terrible on me. John explained that, accurately, this style's pockets were based on the side seams of the jacket, not the zipper. As such, as the size went up the real estate in the middle of the jacket grew larger, which made me look like a whale.

So, once again, I found that I had an idea of what a perfect WWII 422a would look like based mostly on my recollections of the G-1s that I had seen when I was in the Corps or pictures from the squadron's historical files; and what I really wanted was a jacket that looked like what I BELIEVED a wartime 422a should look like on me.

Therefore I confess that, while I would have once considered myself a stitch counter, my perspective is far more complex than unwavering accuracy. I want an accurate jacket. But one that looks good on me. And one that doesn't stray too far from what I have come to accept as accurate based on my experiences from movies, pictures, and real life.

And, naturally, once you fall off unwavering accuracy, how far do you go? Is a better fit too far? Better zipper? Dare I ask....hand warmer pockets?

So I can see why repro makers have fits trying to accommodate every individual's ideal of what a vintage jacket should be.




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Deacon211 said:

And, naturally, once you fall off unwavering accuracy, how far do you go?...........Dare I ask....hand warmer pockets?
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Now you're cookin' with bacon!!!

The military stuff, I like to be as close as possible (within the bounds of the budget I'd set). Thst said, I'm not a reenactor, and in regard to jackets recent years have seen me favour more civilian styles. I do always try to remember that, back when, (given that I aspire to dress like a civilian at some point between 1930 and 1957 on any given day) the chances of a civilian wearing an actual A2, rather than one of those vaguely inspired-by Schott types, was very slim.... I have bought quite a few pairs of military trousers, ww2 era repro, to wear as part of a civilian look. For that, they need to be the right general cut, but specific details such as pocket placement or button colour and style matter much less.

With civilian leather jackets or suits and such, for me they need to be what I call "vintage possible". In other words, they don't look out of place in the style and material/manufacturing context of the period. A jacket that combines features from several styles of the era is fine for me: there isn't the same uniformity in civilian gear, and if my outfit can pass for something that would have been possivle in 19xx, that works for me.

In terms of knowing whether something is accurate, the web is great: information on the Lounge and elsewhere, plus reference books like Rin Tanaka, or Gary Eastman's book for A2s. Per the question re a 50s jacket being reproduced and sold as 30s, it would depend on the jacket for me. A jacket that was originally on sale in the 30s and still made to substantially the same design by the 50s, that's fine. Not so a 60s Schott Perfecto sold as 20s. There is a level of trust to be placed in manufacturers, but I think it's much harder for anyone to pass off stuff that's blatantly " wrong" now, given that there's just so much information available now.

For me the only sure way of knowing a repro A2, B-3 or Irvin is an accurate repro is by comparing them with originals, either those in my collection or alternatively from photos. Unless an original zip is used I often find the zips are rarely accurate copies of those found on originals.

Johnf
Reading UK
IRVIN REPRO . My ACES HIGH IRVIN size 46 Long. The 46 chest fitted more like a 44 so Go Big. I also went long. 29" The Zippers are cheap foreign metal. The Tape seams and back of collar are horsehide for some reason. The collar fastener is thinner and longer than originals and also horsehide as is the hanging loop. The Belt loops are too wide. Its a Very good Jacket let down by a few silly things. Given that these are now £1200.00 I would go for Eastman next time. Better zips and certainly an equal jacket. I will post pics later. Jon at Aces High was helpful.

I've been collecting vintage clothing long enough to own, have owned, or know someone who does own an original garment or jacket to compare a repop inspired by the said piece to. In fact, noting differences, both subtle and glaring, is apart of the geeky fun of appreciating this stuff.

That being said; I have jackets that are spot-on remakes; they look an feel like something I could have picked up from JC Penny's in 1938. I also have jackets that have had original patterns altered to appeal to a modern clientele that is largely taller and wider than those of the past. I enjoy both for what they are; good looking clothes.

Sizing is an issue. Hard to find anything long enough to suit my otherwise modern style. A 6 foot plus person can theoretically wear a 24" flight jacket from the 1950s, but if you aren't tucking your shirt in or have the right kind of pants, it just looks odd.

I'm always looking at vintage jackets online. "Horsehide jacket" is my usual search on the 'bay or etsy when I browse. I usually look at all of them. I had an old Windward I fight with with its shorter length and that AN-6552 I briefly owned was out of this world-and fit to boot!

I think some of it is the process of ordering a NEW jacket. It's just an enthralling experience, and kind of makes the forum interesting when you can discuss and plan on your custom orders! You're also showing appreciation and patronizing living, working people. I do enjoy the old gems though. Having an original is also quite the experience.

I don't know. For me it's maybe 60/40. 60% of me gravitates toward new or repro while the 40% is reserved for vintage. Wish more of them fit. I think a lot of it has to do with desirability of age vs repro qualities. Having a spankin' new one is just a nice luxury. But so is having a rare historical gem! I don't know. It's an eternal tug of war. They're all great and we're lucky to have so many options and/or eye candy.

Johnf said:

Johnf
Reading UK
IRVIN REPRO . My ACES HIGH IRVIN size 46 Long. The 46 chest fitted more like a 44 so Go Big. I also went long. 29" The Zippers are cheap foreign metal. The Tape seams and back of collar are horsehide for some reason. The collar fastener is thinner and longer than originals and also horsehide as is the hanging loop. The Belt loops are too wide. Its a Very good Jacket let down by a few silly things. Given that these are now £1200.00 I would go for Eastman next time. Better zips and certainly an equal jacket. I will post pics later. Jon at Aces High was helpful.

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I've been wearing one of Jon's Irvins for 2 + years now ( it's labeled as jacket no. 4 ) . Couldn't agree more on the zips. Waldes Japan makes mid-war lightning style zippers which I'd love to have put on it but I can't figure out how to order from them. It's the best repro I've owned. I just wanted a daily wearer. The thing about working with Jon is I could customize every detail of the fit. I took measurements of all the favorite parts of my originals (sleeve length, sleeve diameter, waist, etc.) and a few repros and came up with a bespoke fit. The colors of his hides and fleece are exactly what I like - on the dark brown side. As far as his use of horsehide , it's more durable anyhow. The width of belt loops that are maybe a few millimeters off is a non-issue for me. And you can actually use the collar strap, which was a huge selling point for me - I've never owned an original that I could use the strap on, at least while actually wearing the jacket, but then I'm a power-lifter with wide shoulders, thick lats and neck ( another consideration Jon and I took care of when making the jacket). Jon also hand sews the elastic collar strap too, Eastman doesn't . I paid $1200 US for mine and considering what Jon charges now if he even has the time to take orders, I consider it a bargain.

Dinerman said:

Ralph's people may fudge the era of their repros in their marketing vs. what they've based it on, may do a lot of never-was simulacra, and may produce a lot of their things in China, but I'll give them this- they know their source material and buy a bunch of my originals.

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Curiously, I recently sold an H.L.B. Corp M-421 summer flying jacket, on ebay, to the director of menswear at Ralph Lauren. Within a few months they came out with a somewhat modified repro.. Coincidence? I would like to think not.

Johnf said:

Johnf
Reading UK
IRVIN REPRO . My ACES HIGH IRVIN size 46 Long. The 46 chest fitted more like a 44 so Go Big. I also went long. 29" The Zippers are cheap foreign metal. The Tape seams and back of collar are horsehide for some reason. The collar fastener is thinner and longer than originals and also horsehide as is the hanging loop. The Belt loops are too wide. Its a Very good Jacket let down by a few silly things. Given that these are now £1200.00 I would go for Eastman next time. Better zips and certainly an equal jacket. I will post pics later. Jon at Aces High was helpful.

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As a collector of original Irvin jackets I must politely disagree with your observations on Jon's Irvin. Jon generally uses Lightning style zips and these are more accurate than the ones used by other makers! Lightning zips were used on many Wartime jackets. The seam tapes were indeed made from horsehide or cowhide on original Irvins. The size of the collars on Irvins varied considerably. This jacket is based on a Wareings jacket and they had larger collars! The length of the collar strap varied on originals. The belt loops are the correct width for a Wareings jacket as they had wider belt loops. Here are two original Wareings jackets. BTW. The mid War jacket has a leather hanging strap.

1939 dated two panel Wareings jacket. This is a very large size example and was issued to a Blenheim pilot. The fleece is an unusually creamy colour. The main zip is by Dot and the sleeve zips are Lightnings.



1941-2 four panel Wareings jacket in mint condition. It is a size 6 and has cast double trunnion Dot zips. It belonged to a squadron leader who flew Mosquitos

Johnf said:

Johnf
Reading UK
IRVIN REPRO . My ACES HIGH IRVIN size 46 Long. The 46 chest fitted more like a 44 so Go Big. I also went long. 29" The Zippers are cheap foreign metal. The Tape seams and back of collar are horsehide for some reason. The collar fastener is thinner and longer than originals and also horsehide as is the hanging loop. The Belt loops are too wide. Its a Very good Jacket let down by a few silly things. Given that these are now £1200.00 I would go for Eastman next time. Better zips and certainly an equal jacket. I will post pics later. Jon at Aces High was helpful.

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What I intended to say by way of agreeing with you on the point of Jon's zippers is that they are "flimsier" (for lack of a better word) than I'd like - the slider tabs are thinner than let's say a RiRi or an original Lightning. Jon has said they are made by Lewis leathers. Their relative authenticity on the jacket style ("pre-war" model), as aswatland has pointed out, isn't in question.
The thing I like about Waldes zippers is one may custom order zippers to one's exact specifications, choosing the specific tape, teeth, box, rails etc. but I assume one must order them in quantity, like Mr. Chapman at Goodwear Leather does. Waldes makes their Lightning sliders in brass and nickel, both antiqued, and they would look stunning on Jon's jackets. If you're a true geek/nerd/otaku/enthusiast in this sort of thing I recommend downloading their catalog from their site, the Lightning sliders are on page 6. I can't say for sure but I'm guessing Waldes is in some way connected with MASH Japan.

Hello All,
Regarding My Aces High may I clarify. The Zipper IS very authentic. my point was that although Authentic it is made of a cheap metal. The fur seems more curly rather than the tight fur on an original, Almost, Only Almost toward Devon Fleece! I didnt know Originals used horse for the seam tapes. Did they use horse behind the collar does anyone know. Please dont get me wrong , I Adore this Irvin. I wear it to doze off on the Sofa and throw it around just to "age" it quickly. I have wanted "this Jacket" since 1973 so believe me I am thrilled. Needing a 46 chest an original was never going to happen as even a size 7 is too small for me. I also like the longer size mine being 29inch. I alternate between my new Aces High and my old Eastman late war (Dark Fur). I also own Two Aero Heavy Brown Steerhide Cheyennes (My wife cant understand why I need two identical Jackets) ...Women !!!. I have an Eastman Horse A2 and did have an Eastman A1 which I sold and now bitterly regret.
John in Reading

Horse hide was in the specification supplied by the Air Ministry to manufacturers. So yes it was used to back the collar. I suspect cow hide was used as well. In the War a wide range of different sheepskins were used. The early jackets were made of a shorter close pile fleece, whilst later War ones tended to be made of longer, shaggy fleece, although close pile was generally used for the collar, hem and cuffs.

Cheers Andrew, I will post a few photos when I get the chance.

Had one of Jon's Pre-War Irvin 's. Sold it here. Now I cry after it. Was the best Irvin repro I have seen. Tried all other magic 2 others...Jon's the best in all details. Furthermore now its investment. I guess very hard to come by one nowadays.
I could bit my$&$$&;:;;@$ off.