how far does a person need to travel to be considered a "Tourist" ?

Discussion in 'The Observation Bar' started by green papaya, May 10, 2020.

  1. Bushman

    Bushman My Mail is Forwarded Here

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    It makes me think that, in some places, some people would be entirely incapable of dressing certain ways WITHOUT the internet, including us! In the case of punk clothing, as you pointed out, kids can simply go online, find the same clothes all of their friends are wearing, order it, and it's on their doorstep within the week. For us, the hat store has sadly gone away, and many of us wouldn't have access without the Internet being there for us.

    Not at all! High schoolers have been posing as the "cool look" long before us, and I'll assume they'll be doing it long after us.

    I'm rather fond of this General Sherman meme.
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Edward

    Edward Bartender

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    Exactly so. I currently buy my underwear and some of my shirts locally; everything else in my wardrobe, including every single pair of trousers I currently own, was purchased online. Unless or until I can afford to go bespoke for everything, I simply cannot purchase trousers I can wear comfortably other than online.
     
  3. Woodtroll

    Woodtroll Practically Family

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    Not at all funny. A think a strong case could be made that there are quite a few northern cities that could be burned right now with no net loss to the country. Left to their own devices (and their own "industry"), they very likely would burn themselves given a little time.

    It seems these threads always turn into a device for certain folks to smugly insult other people or ways of life. And no, I'm not talking about the "redneck" jokes; I'll answer to that or "hillbilly" if it's all in good humor and laugh along with you. I guess I should be thankful that "white trash" hasn't been thrown out yet, but at least that term seems to apply equally throughout most of the country.
     
  4. Bugguy

    Bugguy A-List Customer

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    Florence, KY doesn't get much more Northern Southern than this. The Mason-Dixon line, a.k.a. the Ohio River, is 5 miles up the 'I'.

    OIP.JsF_i96vT3h7lNVax4HjqwHaJ4.jpeg
     
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  5. LizzieMaine

    LizzieMaine Bartender

    Entire books have been written documenting how the whole "Lost Cause" myth and its associated iconography was deliberately manufactured around the turn of the 20th Century by persons with a vested interest in preserving a certain racial and economic status quo. It's unfortunate that too many who have accepted that myth over the last century haven't been willing to take a look behind the curtain.

    Fortunately, of course, we're far beyond such self-serving mythologies today.
     
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  6. Edward

    Edward Bartender

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    I can't help but wonder if that makes those of us striving to dress every day in a manner that went out of fashion ten years or more before we were born Vintaboos. ;)

    I remember it being seen just as some sort of "cowboy flag" (I remember having some of the 'Britains' line of toy soldiers from the ACW. I had Union because I liked the blue uniforms better (!), so little brother ended up with the Johnny Rebs. While I have a fairly superficial level of understanding of that conflict, I think I first became aware of the flag controversy at a festival in the 90s, when the (American) band on stage demanded somebody in the audience stopped flying it. Likely that kid thought it was just the "Dukes of Hazzard flag". I think it was when I first read To Kill a Mockingbird when I was fifteen that I realised that a General Lee was not a car model. These days in the UK, it seems to be equally split between those who still think it's "just a cowboy flag" (line dancers in backwaters), and a subset of eighties rockabillies for whom it "symbolises our music" and will not be told any different. It's slowly disappearing from the scene as times evolve, though.

    I tend to draw something i a difference between those of their time who fought under the flag, and those who recussitated it in the early twentieth century to push another form of politics. I learned a lot about the ACW at the Smithsonian Museum of American History, actually (that and the exhibition in Ford's Theatre) when I was in DC. It was beautifully done there, too - present the facts, let the attendee make up their own mind. There is very much something in the human psychology that tneds to romanticise the past and the "doomed romantic". Then the nuances. What fascinated me when I visited Arlington was learning more about Lee himself. A confederate General who ceded out of loyalty to his men rather than great desire to cede, who despite advancing in the CSA never wore rank signifiers above what he'd worn in the US Army. The really fascinating thing, though, was that he already had plans to have his slaves declared free when he and his wife died, and in preparation, evne when it was illegal, was educating them so they would be literate and could 'cope'. Lee was certainly an interesting character. My biggest takeaway with the ACW, though, is that all too often it was the racism which goes under the radar. A terrible conflict, and one which could rival any 20th century tragedy in terms of the poor bugger conscript's experience on either side.

    And also so many fascinating stories on both sides. The one that sticks in my mind, of all the Irish boys who fought and died on both sides, was the 10th Tennessee (I think!). Men from Ireland, the troops primarily from a Catholic background, the officers - elected by the men - Protestant. At the tiem, unlikely as a mix "back home"...

    In terms of the re-enactment element, the one that fascinated me was a documentary I stumbled across years ago. A hardcore of reenactors woh, instead of driving to the site for the big battle reenactment, spent the week ahead of it marching the route the original union troops did, living how they lived, camping how they camped and eating as they did. They even had a couple of guys portraying CSA pows with them. One of the latter was a bit... unnerving - very deep in character and talked about "the coloureds". The Union boys were very interesting, though. To me, the more interesting bit than the battles (all pointing guns and playing soldier) is the living in between.
     
  7. LizzieMaine

    LizzieMaine Bartender

    I think we've all met people who carry around an overromanticized view of some particular time period, drawn entirely from popular culture -- movies, TV shows, comics, advertising, whatever, images of finely-tailored white people in hazy smoke-filled cocktail bars exchanging meaningful glances, square-jawed GIs in crisp, creased uniforms charging the beachhead, perky housewives vacuuming in pearls, perfectly-behaved kids who always know their place, etc. That kind of distorted romanticization is the very essence of "x-abooness."
     
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  8. ChiTownScion

    ChiTownScion One Too Many

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    Douglas Southall Freeman, although an excellent writer, is the patron saint of all Lost Cause authors. He deserves much credit for being among the first serious Civil War scholars, but he essentially parroted the party line of the Southern Historical Society, of which former Confederate General Jubal Early was a prominent voice.

    That Lost Cause sentimentalism did a lot of harm (my opinion here) to the objective study of the Confederate armies as a whole: Lee's Army of Northern Virginia is deified at the expense of the western armies of the Confederacy, particularly the Army of Tennessee. The holy trinity of Lee, Jackson, and Stuart being above reproach, due mainly to the fact that none of the aforementioned lived long enough to become entangled in postwar politics. Whereas James Longstreet (whom Lee respected very much) is distained mainly for having committed the unpardonable sin of becoming a Republican and became the scapegoat for the loss at Gettysburg.

    Again, this is more West vs. East than North vs. South. My bias, and I admit it. The majority of influential newspapers on both sides were in the East, and so the 90 miles that lies between Washington and Richmond became the primary focus after the war. As Confederate generals go, I'll hold Patrick Ronayne Cleburne and Nathan Bedford Forrest against Thomas Jonathan Jackson and James Ewell Brown Stuart, any day of the week. Their tactical achievements in the face of geographical and logistical hurdles (as well as the indifference of their own politicians) earn the deepest respect of this dyed in the blue wool Federal.
     
  9. Zombie_61

    Zombie_61 I'll Lock Up

    "...What a wonderful world this would be..."
    Sam Cooke
     
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  10. ChiTownScion

    ChiTownScion One Too Many

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    I was in "the hobby" for over 20 years. I quickly learned that there is a strong line of demarcation between those who wanted to play soldier and those who took their role as living historian seriously. I did medical reenacting: I spent nearly five years building a field apothecary and medical library while perfecting my impression as a hospital steward (a senior NCO). My rule of thumb was to spend at least three hours of research for every hour I planned on being in front of the public. (Didn't always attain that goal, but I strove for it.) All the while being told, "You should be a surgeon: you know more about this than most guys who are playing surgeon."

    It took me about eight years to acquire the gear and put together an amputation instrument case that was historically accurate, but I finally made the jump. I loved doing it, but packing & unpacking for events hundreds of miles away involved a major time and cash commitment. And, pushing 60, the reality that I was portraying a regimental surgeon who actually was in his early 30's finally hit home: age is the one factor that hours of study and a serious cash investment can never correct for the sake of authenticity. So, I sold most of my uniforms and field gear to a fine North Carolina gentleman whose medical unit has a serious desire to "do it right." Unlike the Illinois, Indiana, and Wisconsin Secesh, I found that Confederate reenactors from the South boast a far greater percentage of individuals committed to authenticity.

    I did take time out for the "romantic" and here's a photo as proof.

    upload_2020-5-22_8-32-33.png
     
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  11. Edward

    Edward Bartender

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    Physical-human-body accuracy is certainly an issue (moreso on the Union side than the South, if my grasp of their conscription policies was correct?). I've never quite managed to fit in some real re-enactment, though I've long hankered after the notion of Home Guard as the best fit, probably, for me (unless I was going to get into doing some earlier stuff for the Irish Revolutionary period, 1912ish-1923, though that's another one you have to be careful with viz modern day politics becoming entangled with the living history). Course, the HG had a very much wider age-range than many realise, given that so many of its members were men in reserved occupations and thus excuse from conscription (average age of Home Guard was 36 - not quite the Dad'sArmy image).

    A friend has done a bit of living history as Northern Ireland WW2 Hmoe Guard, which was something else again. Whereas in Britain, the HG were linked the the military, in Northern Ireland it was an adjunct instead of the police force (Royal Ulster Constabulary, established out of the original Royal Irish Constabulary post-partition). Very different animal indeed. Again, a younger membership than assumed, though that also reflected the fact that, as in the Great War, conscription was not extended to NI (the main reason that, unlike my English chums, I didn't grow up with a whole history of "what Grandad did in the war").
     
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  12. ChiTownScion

    ChiTownScion One Too Many

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    It's an innate dilemma of reenacting. Those of the "right age" to accurately portray a soldier are often incapable of coming up with the necessary cash to equip themselves.

    Figure that, with musket, bayonet, uniform, leathers, and other accoutrements, it'll cost you about $1,500 to equip yourself as a reasonably authentic US Civil War private, North or South. Less if you can get hold of quality used gear or obtain donations. And WWII or Rev War is even pricier. So those who can afford the price tag are often tubby middle aged guys. And they love doing it so much, year after year, that they never want to leave the dance.

    You meet lifelong friends in re- enacting, and you get to watch a lot of the younger kids grow up. It's very hard to walk away. But when you're trying to present an accurate impression of "the boys' war," that day does dawn.
     
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  13. GHT

    GHT I'll Lock Up

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    I love Alabama, I remember a waiter who managed to get five syllables out of the word wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine!

    Do you remember The Beatles song: Day Tripper? That's what we call local tourists.
     
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  14. Edward

    Edward Bartender

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    Indeed, and some conflicts moreso than others for sure. Maybe the trick for re-enactors to be like actors, and shift within the 'hobby' to portraying conflicts where they fit in age-wise. I'm thinknig of things like Mediaeval battles, or the pre-'45 Highland campaigns (the Jacobite risings especially). Difficulty there being even then people didn't live close to as long as we do now, despite "old men" being pressed into war by the feudal system.

    The financial point is one well made. I wonder too whether the nature of the hobby itself is just something most people gravitate to later on in life, when they've had tiem to develop such an all-embracing fixation with aspecific historical period that they want to go all-in with the living history side. Funny, I once went to a costume party dressed as Sid Vicious from the My Way sequence of The Grat Rock'n'Roll SWindle. I was already thirty, and just about got away without looking far too old in it.... (Vicious was only 21 when he died).
     
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  15. Bushman

    Bushman My Mail is Forwarded Here

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    One could argue that some already have. Booming industrial centers like Gary, Indiana, Detroit Michigan, and many of those found among the Rust Belt have indeed been literally and figuratively burned to the ground and left in choking ruination.

    But then I also recognize that there's a difference between a city in economic disheaval being left to rot by its former denizens, and a wartime general waging a scorched earth campaign against perceived traitors fighting for the rights of rich people to own other people. People deride Nazis all the time, but nobody ever seems to get upset about that.

    I think it's also important to point out that a line can be drawn between simple "reenactor", somebody who enjoys history and wants to recreate some of its more action packed moments (i.e. a battle) and a romanticizer who refuses to acknowledge that the point in history they love so much was not a good time for a lot of people, and that their attitude of hand waving some of the more inconvenient truths of that time period is a disservice to the reality of that time period. The 1950s, for example, is often looked back upon with rose tinted glasses. We all love the arrival of rock and roll, Elvis, the fashion of the time, and the economic boom under Eisenhower. But when it comes to pointing out the faults, people will don full black out glasses when one wants to point out the economic wobble at the start of the decade, and the racial tensions in the late part of it.
     
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  16. Woodtroll

    Woodtroll Practically Family

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    Indeed, and you would think that "warriors" could distinguish between war on military forces, and war on civilians. But some couldn't, or maybe they just didn't care. It bothered them not that folks not involved in the conflict starved and froze to death. After all, they were just "Succesh" and so really didn't matter. Many of the folks fighting for the Confederacy fought because their home was being invaded, and they feared the exact kind of treatment that "warriors" like Sheridan, Sherman, and Custer inflicted up and down Virginia and throughout much of the rest of the South. To say the Confederacy fought to preserve slavery is the same as to say everyone in Chicago is a gangster. After all, that's what the movies all say, right?

    And then you compare the Confederacy to Nazis??? What the hell? With the kind of attitude that comment and your Sherman cartoon convey, do you really wonder why there are still hard feelings?

    Go back to Miss Lizzie's comment about the flag with the raised middle finger. I don't own one and have never seen one, but perhaps this bird's for folks like you?
     
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  17. LizzieMaine

    LizzieMaine Bartender

    "The Fifties" of the popular imagination bears pretty much no resemblance at all to the actual, historical 1950s, which makes it difficult to even have a reasonable discussion of the period, even around here. Too many people figure the way they saw the world when they were eight years old is the way everybody else saw it. Ask a radio actress who was hounded out of the only job she knew how to do by red-baiters in 1952 what she thought of "The Fifties" and you'll get a very different reply than you would from some kid who spent that year flipping baseball cards in Mayberry.

    I think that has a lot to do with the way other periods are viewed as well. A kid who was of the impressionable age during the Civil War Centennial period of the early 1960s is going to have certain romantic ideas about the 1860s that have been rooted there so long that they've forgotten where they came from.
     
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  18. Bushman

    Bushman My Mail is Forwarded Here

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    They never would have had their homes invaded had the Confederacy not presented Articles of Secession, every one of which explicitly outlined Lincoln's abolitionist views towards slavery as the root cause for their treason. They fired upon a US military base, started a war, and then have had the nerve to whine about being oppressed ever since. The US government pandered to the Southern States every step of the way. From the Three-Fifths Compromise to the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850, the US government was more than fair on the subject of slavery, perhaps for far longer than they should have been. The South ensured that their states rights superseded the rights of other states, preferring their laws overwrote those in Northern States. The Southern States pushed and pushed and pushed at the definition of state's rights. Did they really believe there eventually would not be a push back?
     

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