Panama Hats Direct feedback and a funny cowboy hat story

[CactusJax]

I ordered a fino fino Patron from Panama Hats Direct (PHD) the first week in September. The first hat he shipped was stolen in a mail truck robbery. The second was not even close to what I ordered plus it was lined (poorly). It cost $50 plus to ship it back. Now he is "looking" for my hat. I sent a rather demanding e-mail the other day and have yet to hear from him. Could be legit but I've got a bad feeling.
After I ordered the hat I found this website. I wish I had found it before the order. I've seen some good and bad feedback here but none I have found was recent. Does anyond have any recent feedback on PHD?

 

[johnnycanuck]

Yes. The last panama hat I bought was from them. I found them fine to deal with. It took two weeks to get my hat shipped, they kept me informed by e-mail once a week as to the progress. I found the experience fine.
Johnny

 

[Bud-n-Texas]

From 1 Texan to another

Sorry to hear of your problems. If you find yourself in need of another, my recommendation is Robert at Panama hat works. I have a 1/2 dozen from Robert and have nothing but praise for them.

http://www.panamas.biz/index.html

 

[CactusJax]

Thanks for the reply, Johnny Canuk

I'm glad it worked out. One of the things that has worried me is the lack of communication. Almost all of the communication I've had with him I have had to initiate. Nothing really concrete in his replies...

 

[CactusJax]

Thanks Bud

I narrowed my choices down to PHD and Bobs site. I really liked the Patron style so I ordered there. Live & learn... I'll be passing through your neck of the woods next week. We're flying the 2 College kids and the one who finally finished (@ ut) to Austin for Thanksgiving... Good to talk to a fellow Texan.

 

[HungaryTom]

Fino fino - Game of diminishing returns

Cactusjax,

I don’t have experience with Panama Hats Direct services.
• Fino fino – you must wait for it, yes since the hat is woven for a few hundred working hours over a few months by a few master weavers, than finished by another half dozen artisans.
• Fino fino - Casey Dalzell calls hats between 900-1200 weaves per square inch a special reserve, Brent Black calls hats with 900+ wpsi also special. 900+ means for example 32*29 weaves/inch. In other words the realm of special hats begins when the less than 0,8 mm thin toquilla strands woven into knots.
• Fino fino – you can expect a fine and even weave, nice ivory color with 1300+ weaves per square inch with, higher are 1500+ to 1700+ wpsi. In examples (38*35), (40*38), (43*41) meaning 38-43 weaves in a row per inch - there are always more knots in the one direction than in the other. In practice you can see the difference anyway only with a magnifying glass, these knots have only fractions of millimeters.
• Fino fino on the e-bay for bargains: happens a few times a year and some lucky guy gets a historical and vintage specimen and gets it re-blocked! Really. Weave-count is higher; up to 54-52 weaves per inch. Fractions of millimeters difference again. Look for threads on this forum started by Sharpetoys (2800+) and Marc Chevalier (around 2000).
• Fino fino – you must pay for this valuable artwork either somewhat in the neighborhood of a thousand dollar or several thousands, depending on the vendor.
• Fino fino – you must find a serious vendor, who really offers them and not only baptizes his toquilla hats this way. There are only a few of them.
• Fino fino - choice of the value buyer: Panamabob, a member here. Pay him, trust him and wait your turn, you will get yours.
• Fino fino - if you want to get it fast and money is no issue or you are ready to submerge in an ocean of loans to get your Montecristo hat: go for Brent Black, Montecristi Custom Hats/Milton Johnson, Paul’s Hatworks, and a few others.
• Brent Black lists his finest hat as 2500 wpsi and for twenty five thousand dollars- this means his knots are 0,5 mm thick or 50 weaves per inch. Bob has his finest hats as 1700+ wpsi for a thousand dollars or less – you get 0,6 mm for that or 41-42 weaves. You pay in other words 24000 USD for the difference between Bob’s 0,6 mm and Black’s 0,5 mm/knots.
• Game of diminishing returns – starts at 0,8 mm and ends at 0,5 mm - are you ready for it???

 

[indycop]

Cactusjax, I ordered 2 $20 panamas from phd on ebay a while back. It took forever despite getting an email sying they had both my wife's size and my size 61 in stock. When they finally arrived the one for my wife was correct but the one for me, the 61 cm was too small anything but a baby. I called them and was assured that I was crazy, they don't make anything that small, must be my fault etc.... :rage: I never sent it back since the shipping would end up more than what I paid for the hat.[huh]

I will NEVER order from them again!

 

[CactusJax]

Yes. The last panama hat I bought was from them. I found them fine to deal with. It took two weeks to get my hat shipped, they kept me informed by e-mail once a week as to the progress. I found the experience fine.
Johnny

I've got a great story about a hat that looks like it's been runover:

We used to have a hunting lease near Raton, New Mexico. It was about an hours drive in good weather to Raton in good weather, impossible in bad and usually somewhere in between during hunting season. Consequently we did not go to town much. One hunt the weather was bad, nobody had seen any game in 3 days so we headed into town for a meal. After the meal we wandered into a western store. It was quite a large store for a small town. We were immediately struck by the number of old hats hanging on every wall in the store. It was hard to look at any of his merchandise because he had so many great old abused hats.

One of the guys with us found an old hat he loved and wanted to buy it. The hat was full of holes. There was not a clean spot on it anywhere. He approached the owner and asked how much. The owner explained that the fellow who had owned that hat came in shortly after the store had opened wanting a new hat. The man was a few dollars short and could not buy it. The owner, struggling with his new store really needed a sale so he offered to take the old hat as a trade in. The owner claimed that this hat brought him luck and he could not possibly sell it. The hundreds of old hats on the walls were trade ins...

The fellow who wanted the hat was a successfull lawyer and owned factories that made boats, trailers and high performance propellers. As is commonly percieved, a wealthy Texan with a big ego thinks he can always have his way. He kept upping the offer for the hat but the owner would not sell it. (To heck with good luck, I would have taken the money...)

The owner offers to make a new hat in the same shape and suggests that in a few years of use and abuse it will have the same character as the other one. The fellow agrees. My father and three others say me too. We wandered around town for a couple of hours while the hats were being finished. On the trip back to the hunting lease the conversation turns to how to "age" the hats and give them some character for the new hats looked new... The conversation was about what kinds of stains were on the old hat. Axle grease, gasoline, roofers tar, blood (do you think one of those holes was a bullet hole?)...

As we arrived at the hunting lease and passed the owners tractor and dozer, one of the guys suggested that surely there was a good stain or two on the tractor and dozer. We stopped and a couple of the guys got out and began staining their hats. They rubbed them in the diesel spilled on the fuel tank, axle grease and then proceded to rub dirt on them... for most of them that was enough.

The fellow who attempted to purchase the old hat was not satisfied. To him it looked like a new hat with some crud on it but new... That night he lit a small dry stick in the campfire and burned a couple of holes in the hat. Next he got out his knife and punched a number of pinholes in the crown and a couple of big holes in the brim. He picked up a burning branch from the fire, rubbed the glowing embers accross a couple of spots on the brim. Then he picked up another stick, holds it over the hat and begins to hit the sticks together, showering the hat with burning embers. It still looked too new for him.

The next day the obsession continued. The hat was stomped flat in the muddy creek bank, rubbed in cow and elk excrement, he placed it on the ground next to the outhouse urinated on it, asked the others to do the same. That day was a good game day so the hat got splattered with elk and out of season turkey blood (the guy who shot it grinningly told us that it looked like an elk in the scope, of course we had to eat the evidence). He reshaped the hat, stuck a turkey feather in the band and left it on the porch to dry out.

The hat froze solid overnight. He brought it in and left it on top of a propane heater to thaw when we left to hunt the next morning. When we returned the cabin really stunk, it was the hat...

Every year the guys wear their hats to Raton. One of them always stunk... The story was relived around the campfire every hunt for years...

I was in my mid 20's when this happened. I think I realized that you can't buy character, you can't recreate it but perhaps in trying you can become one...

My favorite hat is a Stetson Open Road. I have had it for over 25 years. Both of my grandfathers owned successfull businesses and as a hobby raised cattle. They both wore an open road while on the ranch. Being a teen in the 60's & 70's we were way too hip for a western hat... We called the Open Road the old coot hat (aka the LBJ hat). One day while wandering around South Congress Ave in Austin I saw an open road in a western store window. It made me remember my Grandfathers so I went in and bought it. I was sort of embarrassed to wear the "old coot hat" at first. I jokingly called it my "Redneck Umbrella" because it comes out every time it rains. Over the years I have had many adventures in the hat and it's become quite dirty. I live in East Texas where western attire is more common that business attire. People are serious about their cowboy hats. One of my co-workers has his hat cleaned and reblocked every time there is a hint of wear on it. He wears it to work every day. He thinks my dirty hat is a disgrace. I always tell him that his clean hat has no character... Behind every stain and smudge is a story... as we say in East Texas "Ain't no way that thang's gittin cleaned!"

 

[CactusJax]

Thanks for the Replies

Thanks for the input. I'd like to hear some more PHD experiences. A good hat story wouldn't hurt either...

CJ

 

[scalawag]

I ordered from them earlier this year.

I ordered a Fino Fino in the Havanah style earlier this year. It did take a while to arrive (as already stated a hat of this quality weave will do) I think 6-8weeks as I recall. I did e-mail regularly for updates and was reassured that everything was in hand.
When the hat arrived the package had passed through UK customs with no charge (phewww!!!!).
The hat totally surpassed my expectations. The weave is tight, small and even, the colour is superb and the backweave at the edge of the brim is unbelievably fine.
The finnishing may leave a bit to be desired, the blocking is ok, not so keen on the very plain leather sweatband, and mine was also lined with a cheap satin liner (which came straight out). But all this can be corrected if desired, the hat body (which is the important bit) is fantastic quality.

All in all I am very satisfied with the hat and service I recieved from PHD.

Paul

 

[CactusJax]

Thanks Paul

I appreciate the comments.

 

[HungaryTom]

The hat totally surpassed my expectations. The weave is tight, small and even, the colour is superb and the backweave at the edge of the brim is unbelievably fine.
The finnishing may leave a bit to be desired, the blocking is ok, not so keen on the very plain leather sweatband, and mine was also lined with a cheap satin liner (which came straight out). But all this can be corrected if desired, the hat body (which is the important bit) is fantastic quality.

All in all I am very satisfied with the hat and service I recieved from PHD.

Paul

Paul,

You are absolutely right. I think the whole fino fino is like with paintings: (metric/non-metric) dimensions are also given there and masterworks are framed the nice way, but if one praises the ESSENCE i.e. the beauty of lets say a Turner painting it is not mentioned ‘Oh, it is 61,5x82 cm and not the standard 60*80 cm’ or ‘How nice is the framing’- you never see framings in the album reproductions anyway.
The high weave-count (numeric measure) is not everything and can not be the sole determining factor about the beauty.
So if the finish is not so fine but the weave is OK – you have the essence, what you wanted.

Much more value than to have a poorly woven hat superbly blocked and with a nice ribbon and sweatband. (Like a reprint poster with nice frame).

High-priced hatters: Brent Black seems to co-operate also with a lots of US hatters to get all his hats blocked right and presented the right way: nice block, ribbon and sweatband, Milton Johnson and Paul’s seem to block and finish their hats at their own premises.

Panamabob offers besides Ecuador blocking the services of US master hatters against a surplus price over the Ecuador block- and there you don’t have problems with linings, ribbon or sweatband, you get instantly what you want. I went for fino fino at Panamabob and his US master hatters (Mr. Art Fawcett, Mr. Gary White) and it worked, yes it was another few weeks of wait but the result -great styling matching the superb weave and back-weave- was worth it.

Just wonder when Casey Dalzell decides to cooperate with US hatters to get this quality issue straight, i.e. to offer his premium line of hats with a matching finish - maybe he wants to control everything in Ecuador - who knows?

IMHO there is no point to go the half way with a Montecristi fino fino neither for buyer nor seller: I see no point in spilling such a masterwork with a lesser grade finish just to offer a more competitive price.
From the buyers point of view there is not much sense to wait 2-3 weeks less and spend a hundred dollar less to get a finish where there are reasons to complain and to upgrade.
If someone wants to save money when buying a hat: cheaper grade cuenca, or a simple straw hat, baseball cap etc. will do.

 

[scalawag]

I understand what you mean now Tom

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the comments, and I could not agree more with the comments about finishing. I too think the finnishing is important to set off the fine piece of art that a fino montechristi is, and given the chance again I would have my fino fino hat finnished by Art if I could (the one I have may find its way to him at some point).
I did however, buy the hat from Casey before I had even found the lounge(I think from memory about 2 weeks before, is that not always the way), and so was not so aware of these issues as I am now. it is a testament to the lounge and its members that my knowledge about hats has grown so much in such a short time.
I have since also bought a lesser quality hat from Panama Bob (300wpi or so) this was also blocked and finnished in Ecuador. Service and quality were comparable to Casey at PHD, although the parcel did atract the attention of customs on this occassion. There is not a great deal of difference in the finnishing although I did have to do less work on the PHD hat to get it how I liked (it is difficult to give an accurate comparison as the hats are different weave counts which I susspect affects how they take and keep a block, they also have different block styles etc...)
I had this hat finnished in Ecudor too because this was not to be my "best" Panama, more an everyday hat for the summer ( I wear a hat almost every day of my life) and there is a sort of rustic charm to their finnishing which has grown on me as well and which for me kind of harks back to the working roots of the hats themsleves.
In as much as Casey working with US master hatters, I understand that he runs PHD as a side line to his main work as an aid worker or some such, as a way of making additional income for his family. I would guess that he feels he offers a good product at more than a fare price (which I think he definately does) and does not want the added potential for difficulty that comes from adding others into the chain of sale (hope any hatters reading this do not take that the wrong way its not that I think you are trouble, just the potential for more links in the chain, more problems). After all you can always employ the hatters yourself to refinnish a hat if you are not entirely happy with it as is. Casey is not charging the extra $100 or so dollars to have the hat finnished in the US, and what you get is what you pay for. Actually with either Casey or Bob, both of whom I have dealt with now, you get far more than what you pay for, especially if you buy there higher grade hats. Finnishing you pay for too, just with Bob you can get him to deal with the Hatter for you, but as ever in this world it then costs you more.

Regards

Paul

 

[KObalto]

Super Fino fedora

I ordered one of these from Casey. The price was great. It took about 6-8 weeks to arrive but email communication was good albeit generally instigated by me. I ordrered the balsa wood box, too. The package arrived, apparently untampered with yet the brim was rather wavy but a spray bottle amd a hair dryer quickly fixed that (even though I had no experience). It is odd that they are lined, not sure why they do that, but my liner looks fine. It should make the hat hotter to wear, though. The weave and color are gorgeous, the blocking just okay. That is not their specialty in Ecuador, historically they ship unblocked hats. I am having it re-blocked here, and even after paying for that, I will have a great hat at a great price.

 

[CactusJax]

It's now been a week since my last e-mail to PHD. No reply. I e-mailed him again tonight. Perhaps he is on the road looking for my hat...

 

[CactusJax]

B Black connection to Longview Texas

I stopped into a local custom hattery today. I hadn't been in since I bought my annual straw Open Road in the Spring. He wasn't familliar with the hat I went in to ask about having made. I saw a bamboo tube in his showcase and asked him if there was a hat in there. Of course there was a Montecristi, but not for sale... we began a conversation about the hat. He asked me if I knew how much some of them sold for... I told him I had seen the hats in Hawaii... and the prices... He asks me to guess where it might have been finished.... Right here! My wife did the brims and I did the rest, he told me... I nearly fell over. Right here in East,Texas, Redneck Headwear Ground Zero B Black hats were being blocked. He told me that it was taking a disporportionate amount of his time for the money so he stopped doing them to take care of his traditional business (Western hats, saddles & tack). I want to get an unfinished hat and take it to him and see what I get... Who would have guessed.

 

[J.T.Marcus]

I stopped into a local custom hattery today.

Would that be Johnny's? If so, have you had him make a fedora for you?

 

[CactusJax]

That's the place...He made me my first custom hat in 1969 He made me a porkpie in college, a number of cowboy hats over the years, a couple of nice snap brims one Halloween when my neighbor & I were the Blues Bros. I have also purchased quite a few off the shelf straws from him....

 

[CactusJax]

The last couple of years I've been into Mikes Custom Hatters (.com) here in town. He does great vintage styles and is really into it... See my post on JohnnyCanucks gone western thread to see the three he made me. I ordered another today. A low crown OR snap brim with a teardrop crown...

 

[CactusJax]

I still love Johny's though....