" The Great British Hat Makers "

[Willem07]

Good day dear members,
I am from Belgium, and found this top hat.
Beaver fur, probably 1850-1870
Joseph Edwin Ward (Joseph E Ward)
Insigia : Hony soit qui mal y pense (Order of the Garter ?)
on the box : initials (JEW) - from Joseph E Ward
on the box : initials (LTD) - from Limited
Trade mark : The Bredbury Brand
The hat is still in perfect condition.
In my opion, a very rare top hat from excellent quality.
Regards Wim

 

[steur]

Good day dear members,
I am from Belgium, and found this top hat.
Beaver fur, probably 1850-1870
Joseph Edwin Ward (Joseph E Ward)
Insigia : Hony soit qui mal y pense (Order of the Garter ?)
on the box : initials (JEW) - from Joseph E Ward
on the box : initials (LTD) - from Limited
Trade mark : The Bredbury Brand
The hat is still in perfect condition.
In my opion, a very rare top hat from excellent quality.
Regards Wim

Welcome to the lounge, Willem. That is a nice find. How rare it is, is always a bit difficult to say, but it's certainly a good looking hat.

 

[Steve1857]

Good day dear members,
I am from Belgium, and found this top hat.
Beaver fur, probably 1850-1870
Joseph Edwin Ward (Joseph E Ward)
Insigia : Hony soit qui mal y pense (Order of the Garter ?)
on the box : initials (JEW) - from Joseph E Ward
on the box : initials (LTD) - from Limited
Trade mark : The Bredbury Brand
The hat is still in perfect condition.
In my opion, a very rare top hat from excellent quality.
Regards Wim

Welcome to the Lounge, Willem.

You've kicked off with a very nice find. What leads you to believe the hat is from 1850-1870?

Joseph E. Ward were based in Bredbury, so the box definitely fits. I can't see the initials J.E.W., though. Can you please post a photo of them?

The insignia "hony soit qui mal y pense", which is indeed the motto of The Order of the Garter and means, approximately, "shame on him who thinks badly of it", is pretty ubiquitous on hats like "dieu et mon droit" for example.

I'm in doubt as to whether or not the hat was made by Ward. I believe his name would have been on it. I also doubt that the two, box and hat, are an original match.

However, it is still a very nice looking Top Hat and a most interesting box. Congrats on the purchase.

Please add your post to the Toppers Unite thread on the Lounge.

 

[Willem07]

Welcome to the Lounge, Willem.

You've kicked off with a very nice find. What leads you to believe the hat is from 1850-1870?

Joseph E. Ward were based in Bredbury, so the box definitely fits. I can't see the initials J.E.W., though. Can you please post a photo of them?

The insignia "hony soit qui mal y pense", which is indeed the motto of The Order of the Garter and means, approximately, "shame on him who thinks badly of it", is pretty ubiquitous on hats like "dieu et mon droit" for example.

I'm in doubt as to whether or not the hat was made by Ward. I believe his name would have been on it. I also doubt that the two, box and hat, are an original match.

However, it is still a very nice looking Top Hat and a most interesting box. Congrats on the purchase.

Please add your post to the Toppers Unite thread on the Lounge.

Hi Steve, I did some homework ... Correct me if I'm wrong please. So far I have following info about Joseph E Ward. I will post more detail photos later on. About the initials J.E.W. - only on the box. Joseph E. Ward took 2 patents for his logo on 1924. Not before. So maybe (the earlier ones) were not signed inside. The only mark inside is the insignia. And written the name 'UNIOU" or "UNION". Regards



Joseph Edwin Ward – Hat manufacturer – Bredbury/Stockport



Patents :



Annual Report of the Commissioner of Patents - Trademark –

December 26th 1924 – two logos

US Patent Office Trademark renewed “Joseph E Ward Limited’ –

June 23rd 1945

Great Britain patents for improvements of machinery –

October 29th 1866

English patents of inventions –“elastic” –

April 19th 1869

Patentees for the year 1868 –

Assignor for Andrew Dwight Campbell , Great Britain

Mold for forming hats - December 22th 1868 .



Old publicity :



The evening world. [volume], September 19th 1912, Final Edition

‘Jos. E. Ward’ is one of the “Old Country’s” most celebrated hat makers.



Commercial Gazette – 08th October 1885 – list of Britain Top Hat manufacturers



Cheshire directory – 1846 – Commercials

 

[Steve1857]

Hi Steve, I did some homework ... Correct me if I'm wrong please. So far I have following info about Joseph E Ward. I will post more detail photos later on. About the initials J.E.W. - only on the box. Joseph E. Ward took 2 patents for his logo on 1924. Not before. So maybe (the earlier ones) were not signed inside. The only mark inside is the insignia. And written the name 'UNIOU" or "UNION". Regards



Joseph Edwin Ward – Hat manufacturer – Bredbury/Stockport



Patents :



Annual Report of the Commissioner of Patents - Trademark –

December 26th 1924 – two logos

US Patent Office Trademark renewed “Joseph E Ward Limited’ –

June 23rd 1945

Great Britain patents for improvements of machinery –

October 29th 1866

English patents of inventions –“elastic” –

April 19th 1869

Patentees for the year 1868 –

Assignor for Andrew Dwight Campbell , Great Britain

Mold for forming hats - December 22th 1868 .



Old publicity :



The evening world. [volume], September 19th 1912, Final Edition

‘Jos. E. Ward’ is one of the “Old Country’s” most celebrated hat makers.



Commercial Gazette – 08th October 1885 – list of Britain Top Hat manufacturers



Cheshire directory – 1846 – Commercials

Willem, are there any markings on the underside of the white sweatband?

 

[Wangenheim]

Today I got an Dunn & Co. Homburg in black, size 56 (6 7/8).

crown heigt (front center dent): 10 to 10,5 cm
hat band: 4,3cm
sweat band: 5cm

On the sweat band it says "Best Roan Leather" and "G.A. Dunn & Co. Ltd.

The liner: Dunn & Co Ltd. Hat Makers, PIccadilly Circus, 373 Strand, London & Provinces, British Manufacture

Behind the sweatband there's a hatters union sticker and one for the size.

I would like to know, when it was manufactured. Does anyone know?

 

[steur]

Today I got an Dunn & Co. Homburg in black, size 56 (6 7/8).

crown heigt (front center dent): 10 to 10,5 cm
hat band: 4,3cm
sweat band: 5cm

On the sweat band it says "Best Roan Leather" and "G.A. Dunn & Co. Ltd.

The liner: Dunn & Co Ltd. Hat Makers, PIccadilly Circus, 373 Strand, London & Provinces, British Manufacture

Behind the sweatband there's a hatters union sticker and one for the size.

I would like to know, when it was manufactured. Does anyone know?

View attachment 507707 View attachment 507708 View attachment 507709 View attachment 507710 View attachment 507711 View attachment 507706 View attachment 507705

Don't know exactly, but I think I can get close. Dunn&Co didn't make their own hats, but sourced them from various manufacturers. This liner with its decorative piping is quite distinct and leads us to Robert Heath as a maker. I have a very similar one by Robert Heath and by chance it is dated: 1957. Give or take a bit on either side and I think you've got your date. Needless to say it's a nice homburg.

 

[Wangenheim]

That's great! Thank you! So, Dunn isn't even an hat manufacturer : D But of course I never heard of Robert Heath, unfortunately. But this really looks very similar in many details. I think the ultimate check mark was the size label.

 

[steur]

That's great! Thank you! So, Dunn isn't even an hat manufacturer : D But of course I never heard of Robert Heath, unfortunately. But this really looks very similar in many details. I think the ultimate check mark was the size label.

Dunn was a large menswear retailer and we've seen hats wih their brand made by Robert Heath, Moores and T&W Lees. Likely there were others as well. The size label isn't as distinct as you'd think. Most English manufacturers used the same label, or one very much like it.

 

[Steve1857]

That's great! Thank you! So, Dunn isn't even an hat manufacturer : D But of course I never heard of Robert Heath, unfortunately. But this really looks very similar in many details. I think the ultimate check mark was the size label.

In the late 1800s, G.A. Dunn & Co started as a hatter. Probably a seller of rather than a manufacturer of. Later, in the early 1900s, they became a gentleman's outfitters.

I agree with Stefan @steur regarding the dating. After G.A. Dunn's death in the late 30s, from the ca. late 40s on, the liner would read Dunn & Co while the sweatband would read G.A. Dunn & Co. Gradually, they merged to just Dunn & Co.

 

[Wangenheim]

In the late 1800s, G.A. Dunn & Co started as a hatter. Probably a seller of rather than a manufacturer of.

I agree with Stefan @steur regarding the dating. After G.A. Dunn's death in the late 30s, from the ca. late 40s on, the liner would read Dunn & Co while the sweatband would read G.A. Dunn & Co. Gradually, they amalged to just Dunn & Co.

And it's not possible to say, when this transition to completely "Dunn & Co." was reached?

 

[Steve1857]

And it's not possible to say, when this transition to completely "Dunn & Co." was reached?

It is, but I can't quite remember. Possibly the 60s.

I think though, you can safely say, your lovely Homburg is ca. 1950s.

 

[Willem07]

Lot of great experts here, like Steve1857 and Steur. I appreciate it... New one : alwost nothing to find about this one : Top Hat "honi soit mat qui mal y pense " "london" from R Paton... Alwayst nothing to find about ' R Paton'. He's on the list 1894 - Hat manufacturers. Details and info from this site :'https://www.invaluable.com/v2/aucti...arked-honi-soit-qui-mal-y-pe-391-c-1ae42ff827' Same insignia... 17 cm High. Lots of great top Hats to buy here at Belgium... People don't know the value..... Anyway, who knows R Paton .... Thankx

​

 

[steur]

Lot of great experts here, like Steve1857 and Steur. I appreciate it... New one : alwost nothing to find about this one : Top Hat "honi soit mat qui mal y pense " "london" from R Paton... Alwayst nothing to find about ' R Paton'. He's on the list 1894 - Hat manufacturers. Details and info from this site :'https://www.invaluable.com/v2/aucti...arked-honi-soit-qui-mal-y-pe-391-c-1ae42ff827' Same insignia... 17 cm High. Lots of great top Hats to buy here at Belgium... People don't know the value..... Anyway, who knows R Paton .... Thankx

​

A beautiful example, Willem. Nice that it has the mourning band still on it. Never heard of R. Paton before, but there were a lot of hatters around back in the day.
Lots of top hats for sale here in Holland as well which vary wildly in price. But value is a relative matter. If you look on Ebay UK you'll see listings for them for hundreds of pounds. I wonder if they ever sell any for those prices though. The larger sizes in good shape fetch decent prices, but other than that you can get them cheap. But when are you going to wear them?

 

[Steve1857]

Lot of great experts here, like Steve1857 and Steur. I appreciate it... New one : alwost nothing to find about this one : Top Hat "honi soit mat qui mal y pense " "london" from R Paton... Alwayst nothing to find about ' R Paton'. He's on the list 1894 - Hat manufacturers. Details and info from this site :'https://www.invaluable.com/v2/aucti...arked-honi-soit-qui-mal-y-pe-391-c-1ae42ff827' Same insignia... 17 cm High. Lots of great top Hats to buy here at Belgium... People don't know the value..... Anyway, who knows R Paton .... Thankx

​

Hooley Hill is mentioned several times in this book

R Paton isn't, though. But as Stefan mentions, there were a lot of hatters around back in the day, particularly round the Manchester area.

 

[Willem07]

Good evening, anyone can indentify this insignia ? Thanks.

 

[Steve1857]

Good evening, anyone can indentify this insignia ? Thanks.

It's the symbol for the United Kingdom. The lion represents England, the unicorn Scotland. Again, it's a ubiquitous symbol.

What hat is it on?

 

[Willem07]

It's the symbol for the United Kingdom. The lion represents England, the unicorn Scotland. Again, it's a ubiquitous symbol.

What hat is it on?

A top hat, Steve.

 

[Steve1857]

A top hat, Steve.

Thought so, Wim.

Can we see the sweat markings and anything under the sweatband?

A top hat, Steve.

 

[GHT]

Good evening, anyone can indentify this insignia ? Thanks.

If you watch the coronation of King Charles you will see, as Steve points out, the crest that is The Royal Coat of Arms. Beneath it is the motto: Dieu-Et-Mon-droit It's French, meaning: "God and my right:"

Hats in the UK definitely underline the class system, whilst the top hat claims top place, the bowler/ascot is much beloved by those in the financial sector.

There is one hat though, that can claim to be ubiquitous and that's Victorien Sardou's fedora. It was named after the title character in Sardou's play, "Fedora", which premiered in 1882.

Herbert Johnson Hatters of London have had many a comment here on The Lounge, it was to them that the makers of The New Avengers turned to when they wanted a bowler hat for Steed.

Just like many other hats that have appeared on the big screen, in the theatre and on TV.

Nowadays Herbert Johnson is part of the Swaine Adeney Brigg empire. The jury is still out on that one.