Plaid/Tartan vest help.

[Graeme]

Thanks, some great info there.

 

[Mojave Jack]

I'm thinking it'd be the kind of thing to liven up a dinner suit, but maybe not.

I'd go with the all-tartan suit, myself.

bk

I'm looking forward to your posts with pics of you in the suit, BK! ...in public, of course! That peak lapel really makes that second suit!

Slightly off topic but.. there is the J Press Blackwatch jacket. I found one new w/tags for 25 bucks.

Here is a RL tux jacket.

That's a great jacket, Feraud. You are a man of inestimable taste. That looks like a fun night, too. What was the occasion?

 

[Feraud]

Thanks Mohave Jack. The occasion was a Halloween party in NYC.

 

[Alan Eardley]

I can appreciate their annoyance. There is a fashion (again) among young people for wearing shemaghs in the UK and some of my Bedu students don't like the other students wearing their clan or district patterns.

In the case of tartans, there are enough 'nearly' tartan designs and tartans that you can wear without needing to adopt one you aren't entitled to. Many of those that you see sold as (for example) 'Black Watch' aren't the authentic tartan anyway. Which is a whole different kettle of fish...

Alan

I agree entirely with you Alan. I wouldn't be comfortable wearing something which I haven't earnt or have no entitlement to do so. There's a similar thing happening back home where a lot of Maori are getting very annoyed with non-Maoris going off and getting traditional Maori tattoos (Te moko). It's even more confounding when it's someone who isn't even from NZ.

Speaking of tartans, I can wear the Gordon or Colquhoun, much prefer the Colquhoun tartan though.

 

[Mojave Jack]

I am a Fraser descendant, so I suppose I could wear this tartan:

But here's one I can wear!

The US Air Force tartan

Sort of, anyway. It's unofficial, so I suppose the Air Force might have stepped on someone's toes adopting it, but it is being worn by the US Air Force reserve Pipe Band.

 

[dhermann1]

Or this:

This is the USMC tartan. I think it has a nice Scottishoid combination of reds blues and greens.

That brings me to my next question regarding possession of plaids. I would assume that some would object strenuously to my wearing a kilt or a tie from an "unauthorized" clan. How about a jacket, formal or sport, or a shirt? I've always wanted a heavy wool Scottish plaid shirt of one of the more unusual and vibrant tartans.
Another thought: Is there the same passion attached to Lowland clans as there is to Highland or Island? One of the other plaids that's common is Lindsay, which is a muted dark green and maroon. Lindsay is, (correct me if I'm wrong) a Lowland clan, right? How do people feel about that?

 

[kiltie]

tartans

I'm new in these parts, so I don't want to roil the waters too much, but I can't resist here. Clan tartans as we know them today are really and honestly a bunch of hooey for the most part. Consider this: in the old days, there simply were no means to replicate such an intricate pattern en masse. That said, there were certain dyes that were likely more identifiable with certain regions. I wanna say the Gordons were the first to actually come up with anything akin to uniformity. I wish I had my facts to cite at my fingertips, but you see my time stamp. Anywhos, you'll have fun researching this next bit: I wasn't until the eighteen hundreds that the uniformity amongst those outside the military gained any popularity. This, like the eight yards of material that people recognise as a kilt today, was a British invention, and, as I recall, a commercial one at that. Supposedly some sort of book or roll was found ( I forget by whom ) that was a sort of template for all these tartans, and these entreprenuers could get you all hooked up with your roots if you'd buy their swag - and it stuck. In any event, there are about eight zillion variations of about fifty zillion tartans. Obviously there'd be no way of keeping track of the Hunting, Ancient, Modern, etc... variations of tartans.
A lot of the regiments were founded by landed folks ( MacKenzie, Gordon, Cameron, etc... ) and adopted those tartans, but here we come back to British invention. The things ( the bagpipes, kilt, Scots Gaelic...) that were proscripted were allowed back to those who would join the army. And that they did. So deep was the Highlanders love for those things that he joined the army of his oppressor to regain them, but in a bastardised form - a swatch material in place of the great kilt, regimental tunes, etc...All British inventions.
Many will dispute this, thinking they are doing so out of ancestral pride. I have roots in Scotland, but my head is not in the clouds. All you have to do is look at all the other cultures the Empire distorted.
If there were any sort of rules about such things, I'd think they ( the tartans ) wouldn't be widely available. I wear the MacGregor Hunting, as that is my lineage. However, when we started our pipe band we had little money and we figured we could save on one kilt by getting everyone else one like mine. Now we all wear the MacGregor Hunting and tell people it's in honour of John MacGregor who fought at the Alamo. A fib on top of a much larger fib.
So, wear what you want. Just be prepared for people to ask about your clan, family, lineage, etc...There are resources for what is most PROPER, but aside from wearing a regimental tartan to a regimental function, I don't think anyone can honestly tell you you're wrong. Also, buy your vest cut on the bias so it's a nice contrast to your kilt.

 

[Alan Eardley]

There are many paintings dating from the 18th Century that show clan members wearing tartans that are something like the tartan of that clan today. If you think tartans are intricate and difficult to produce, you should see some of the woolen textiles that are produced on hand looms in 'the third world' today.

I don't dispute what you say. Most of the tartans that are sold today are recent inventions, and there was (is?) a rush to invent tartans for every clan, club and purpose, but there are a few tartans that have a long history. This is frequently tied in with sectarian fighting in Scotland, England and Europe during the 17th and 18th Centuries. The 'crossover' between clans and independent companies (i.e. private regiments raised by clan chieftains) was the basis of the Scottish regiments until the late 20th Century. Local similarities of manufacture may account for men from a certain area wearing similar tartans, certainly as you say there is no evidence that I about of standardisation or a system of approval before the repeal of the Dress Act in 1782(?) and the 19th Century so-called 'tartan revival'.

Clan-based Independent Companies fought on both sides in continental wars. The Black Watch fought as part of the Highland Regiment under 'The Butcher' Cumberland at Fontenoy in 1745 in the War of the Austrian Succession. They wore a uniform based on their highland dress, although contemporary prints show the tartan and plaid as being different from the present day Black Watch tartan (which may place in question the darkness of the tartan as a derivation of the name). This predates by two years the Act of Proscription and the banning of clan articles, so these were at least mercenaries and at best volunteers. What you say about 'joining the army of his oppressor to regain them' may apply to some Scotsmen (i.e. some Catholic Jocobite supporters may have done this), but there were Scots clans (highland and lowland) who supported the Protestant Hanoverian regime and fought for it in its political wars with great enthusiasm. There were clan-based Scottish, as well as Irish regiments ('The Wild Geese'), in the French army for years before and after this, of course.

Alan

I'm new in these parts, so I don't want to roil the waters too much, but I can't resist here. Clan tartans as we know them today are really and honestly a bunch of hooey for the most part. Consider this: in the old days, there simply were no means to replicate such an intricate pattern en masse. That said, there were certain dyes that were likely more identifiable with certain regions. I wanna say the Gordons were the first to actually come up with anything akin to uniformity. I wish I had my facts to cite at my fingertips, but you see my time stamp. Anywhos, you'll have fun researching this next bit: I wasn't until the eighteen hundreds that the uniformity amongst those outside the military gained any popularity. This, like the eight yards of material that people recognise as a kilt today, was a British invention, and, as I recall, a commercial one at that. Supposedly some sort of book or roll was found ( I forget by whom ) that was a sort of template for all these tartans, and these entreprenuers could get you all hooked up with your roots if you'd buy their swag - and it stuck. In any event, there are about eight zillion variations of about fifty zillion tartans. Obviously there'd be no way of keeping track of the Hunting, Ancient, Modern, etc... variations of tartans.
A lot of the regiments were founded by landed folks ( MacKenzie, Gordon, Cameron, etc... ) and adopted those tartans, but here we come back to British invention. The things ( the bagpipes, kilt, Scots Gaelic...) that were proscripted were allowed back to those who would join the army. And that they did. So deep was the Highlanders love for those things that he joined the army of his oppressor to regain them, but in a bastardised form - a swatch material in place of the great kilt, regimental tunes, etc...All British inventions.
Many will dispute this, thinking they are doing so out of ancestral pride. I have roots in Scotland, but my head is not in the clouds. All you have to do is look at all the other cultures the Empire distorted.
If there were any sort of rules about such things, I'd think they ( the tartans ) wouldn't be widely available. I wear the MacGregor Hunting, as that is my lineage. However, when we started our pipe band we had little money and we figured we could save on one kilt by getting everyone else one like mine. Now we all wear the MacGregor Hunting and tell people it's in honour of John MacGregor who fought at the Alamo. A fib on top of a much larger fib.
So, wear what you want. Just be prepared for people to ask about your clan, family, lineage, etc...There are resources for what is most PROPER, but aside from wearing a regimental tartan to a regimental function, I don't think anyone can honestly tell you you're wrong. Also, buy your vest cut on the bias so it's a nice contrast to your kilt.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I'm looking forward to your posts with pics of you in the suit, BK! ...in public, of course! That peak lapel really makes that second suit!

Aye, those would be the Duke of Windsor's suits. My size, but way outside by price range, i'm afraid. (The one on the right belonged originally to Edward VII, and was retailored to fit Edward VIII.) I believe the one on the right is the "Lord of the Isles" tartan. Another horrid imperialist holdover.

bk

 

[Alan Eardley]

Correct on both counts, I believe also..

Alan

Aye, those would be the Duke of Windsor's suits. My size, but way outside by price range, i'm afraid. (The one on the right belonged originally to Edward VII, and was retailored to fit Edward VIII.) I believe the one on the right is the "Lord of the Isles" tartan. Another horrid imperialist holdover.

bk

 

[Graeme]

On a slightly different note, im not sure if this is true or not, maybe someone here knows.

As for proper tartans, there are restrictions on what can be made by who.

My sisters ex boyfriends family owned a mill in yorkshire. Apparantly they were the only mill allowed to produce (proper) tartans outside of scotland.

Anyone know if that was likely to be true?

 

[Alan Eardley]

It's the sort of thing people say. I think it is difficult to define what would be meant by a 'proper tartan'. There are so many it's ridiculous. As far as I know, there is no equivalent for tartan cloth of the Harris Tweed Authority (which controls the production of that material) or the Act of Parliament (1993) that gives it its powers.

On a slightly different note, im not sure if this is true or not, maybe someone here knows.

As for proper tartans, there are restrictions on what can be made by who.

My sisters ex boyfriends family owned a mill in yorkshire. Apparantly they were the only mill allowed to produce (proper) tartans outside of scotland.

Anyone know if that was likely to be true?

 

[kiltie]

tartans

Alan Eardley -

Man, it's good to kick around a subject with someone who knows what they're talking about. It's why these sites are a blessing and a curse - just enough info is exchanged to start the conversation... Anyway, Just wanted to add that I was speaking in extremely broad strokes to anyone who gets their Scottish history from reading Walter Scott and watching Bravehart. You then took the thing to the opposite extreme with (well informed ) relatively confined examples. I think we're on the same clock, just opposite ends of the pendulum right now. I don't know how to use the PM feature , but anything you have to offer on the subject would be appreciated. I spent all morning looking for my books and I think we may need to start a whole new site.
If you haven't read The Scottish Highlanders and Their Regiments by Michael Bander, do so. It's a quick read and quite a swashbuckler.

 

[Alan Eardley]

Kiltie,

Hi. The Bander book is one of my sources. I'm not that knowledgeable about clans or tartans in general - I'm interested in British military history and since most of the 'action' on British soil in the last two hundred years involved Scottish regiments of one side or another I've read a bit about them.

The thread has gone to places I don't think we intended - an item arose about wearing Black Watch tartan to formal occasions and I had a mental picture of a 'civilian' meeting a bunch of off-duty Black Watch officers at a dinner, who assume he's a serving or ex-BW officer and the 'interesting conversation' that could ensue...

I guess my posts are in the contect of wearing military regimental tartans, which is often discouraged by members of the regiment themselves as with regimental ties (although the BW website, paradoxically, sells such ties). I agree that the 'approval' to wear clan tartans is romantic hogwash, as is the proliferation of tartans. I heard about a Scout troop in England that had its own tartan designed and woven by one of the 'mums'...

Nice to 'talk' to you.

Alan

Alan Eardley -

Man, it's good to kick around a subject with someone who knows what they're talking about. It's why these sites are a blessing and a curse - just enough info is exchanged to start the conversation... Anyway, Just wanted to add that I was speaking in extremely broad strokes to anyone who gets their Scottish history from reading Walter Scott and watching Bravehart. You then took the thing to the opposite extreme with (well informed ) relatively confined examples. I think we're on the same clock, just opposite ends of the pendulum right now. I don't know how to use the PM feature , but anything you have to offer on the subject would be appreciated. I spent all morning looking for my books and I think we may need to start a whole new site.
If you haven't read The Scottish Highlanders and Their Regiments by Michael Bander, do so. It's a quick read and quite a swashbuckler.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

The only "tartan" i would consider wearing is the shepherd's check (also called the Northumbrian tartan). My local regional - Scottish borders - "tartan". Very much like a gingham. The one in the centre is closest.

Here's a slightly better one, though quite small:

All the rest are, frankly, romanticised make-believe. Dr Johnson (despite the greatness of the man) and his trip to see the "quaint" primitives.

There are very few existent "old" tartans. Those which remain are basic checks in one or two colours. See the "Falkirk sett". (generally a base of the undyed color of the local sheep, woven together with ether dyed - muddy green, purple, brown, earthtones - yarn from the same sheep, or yarn from a local sheep with different colouration.) I simply cannot believe in the historical, or Scottish nationalist, worth of the bright colours most commonly associated with tartan today; and the number of colours used in each individual tartan. Should you (vosotros) ever visit Scotland or northern England, look to the few remaining areas of moorland (the only real remains we have of the unruined landscape). You won't find many bright colours, even in summer. The only ones you'll find are purple and yellow. And believe me - we did it at school - it's very difficult to geerate a brightly coloured dye from heather or bracken flowers. The traditional weavers in the borders are mostly making fabric with patterns like those i show above, though obviously they make others for various markets.

bk

 

[Kilted_Surveyor]

Wear it Proud!

I am Irish. I have found several sources that say the Irish were the first to wear the kilt. Does it really matter?[huh]
The tartan I wear is from County Cork in southern Ireland where my family is from. I say wear it and enjoy it!!

I'm the short one on the right! (short comapred to 6'-6"!)

I'm the drunk one on the right! One hand, two beers. Typical Irishman!

 

[dhermann1]

What I find fascinating and tantalizing about this subject is the fact that plaids in general go back thousands of years. The ancient Romans almost defined barbarism as the wearing of trousers. The ancient Celts, the ancestors of the the Scots and the Irish, wore plaid wool trousers.
The Scots, being descended from the combination of Celtic, Pictish and Norse, obviously came up with their own variations on the theme. But given that the Celts had commercial contact with the Romans, and might have been able to trade for dyes or died yarns, they could have had some interesting colors and patterns in their plaids.
Can either of you gentlemen shed a little light on this aspect of the story?

 

[Alan Eardley]

What I find fascinating and tantalizing about this subject is the fact that plaids in general go back thousands of years. The ancient Romans almost defined barbarism as the wearing of trousers. The ancient Celts, the ancestors of the the Scots and the Irish, wore plaid wool trousers.
The Scots, being descended from the combination of Celtic, Pictish and Norse, obviously came up with their own variations on the theme. But given that the Celts had commercial contact with the Romans, and might have been able to trade for dyes or died yarns, they could have had some interesting colors and patterns in their plaids.
Can either of you gentlemen shed a little light on this aspect of the story?

Not my subject, other than to point out that the word 'Celt' is held by many to come from 'Keltoi' - Greek for 'kilted ones' (see Herodotas) and defined a whole range of Western European (as we would now call them) tribes. 'Celts' were, of course, found in what are now France and Belgium as well as what are now Britain and Ireland. The Romans got the word from the Greeks, who traded with these countries.

Also, the word 'plaid' refers to a garment (a cloak) rather than a pattern or fabric. A plaid can be plain, and many undoubtedly were in 'the old days'. Patterns (although not bright and nothing like the present 'flashy' tartans) appear in 18th Century paintings, but we have np way of knowing how accurate they are.

Alan

 

[kiltie]

Alan Eardley

Other than the fact that, judging from your avatar, your look ( remarkably ) like a dog, I want to be just like you when I grow up. Maybe taller, too. Do you know what kind and where I can get MOD type shoes ( new, used... ) that the Highlanders wear? Mess kit, not boots...

 

[Woland]

There's a similar thing happening back home where a lot of Maori are getting very annoyed with non-Maoris going off and getting traditional Maori tattoos (Te moko). It's even more confounding when it's someone who isn't even from NZ.

In order to go even more off-topic:

Among tattooists there is this story about a guy who paid a bunch for a maori backpiece, and (although being Non-Maori) entered a tattoo competition in NZ.
As he strutted his stuff on stage, the audience (mostly Maori) broke down in fits of laughter.
As it turned out, his backpiece was a traditional pattern reserved for the Chiefs 3rd mistress...

"A Maori backpiece? Sure, I can do a Maori backpiece on you. Gonna cost you though... Bend over!"

Tribal Convention in Borneo.