Vintage versus modern ´quality´

Huertecilla · Mar 12, 2014

mayserwegener said:
I pretty much agree but not regarding the above. This is taste and has nothing to do with quality. For example not liking old Austrian Velour finishes shouldn't discount they were at highest end and extremely difficult to produce. There is a good deal of group think here that gets in the way of the facts.

It also totally ignores my point about providing factual, illustrated foundation. With such provided the reader can not only séé and learn but also diito whether it is indeed about a higher level of finish, about higher spec properties or about taste.

In that sense, in retrospect, my question has two parts.

I was highly surprised by the remark that Fedoras are about fashion and ´western´hats about function. I am a semi-pro horseman and wear hats as part of my attire; I have two tricone hats for cross country, two spanish riding hat and the rest is ozzie or western/fedora. I find the today fashionable western hats less suiteable for horse riding; they catch too much wind, whether from the elements or from riding.

I also want to buy some higher quality níce. Something more luxury for the function of protecting my scalp against the southern sun. A western hat would be style suicide here. Even an ozzie hat is pushing it over the edge. he panama I have already mentioned. The stylish aspect is functional too for me as dating women is a hobby of mine.

gtdean48 · Mar 12, 2014

mayserwegener said:
I pretty much agree but not regarding the above. This is taste and has nothing to do with quality. For example not liking old Austrian Velour finishes shouldn't discount they were at highest end and extremely difficult to produce (both facts that have nothing to do with taste). There is a good deal of group think here that gets in the way of the facts IMHO.

I'm with Steve in that I don't care for WAR's or velours but don't doubt that quality is there & exceptional too.
Again, if the powers that be didn't "standardize" the X system on even beaver content back when hats were at their peak, why would any other quantifiable standard get developed except by a volunteer from this bunch? Maybe some academic can get a grant....they sure give out funds for more worthless endeavors..

Seb Lucas · Mar 12, 2014

Huertecilla said:
To the contrary what I am asking for is a factual, illustrated foundation for narratives concluding that a reviewed hat/model/model line from brand X is or is not as good as the vintage predecessor.
The reader can than see, learn, weigh the difference.

Hmm.Sounds like you're fixated on this no matter what others say. Why don't you put in the research and become the first person to achieve this objective identification of quality?

I personally have never chased this idea quality all that much in my life and never felt the lack of it. Once it comes to classifying, measuring, weighing and rating objects I move on out of sheer boredom.

Lefty · Mar 12, 2014

Here's what I've read:
I want an answer to my question.
No one has the answer to my question.
I refuse to do my own research to answer my question.

It's a sad story, often told...
by short-term, former members.

mayserwegener · Mar 12, 2014

Huertecilla said:
It also totally ignores my point about providing factual, illustrated foundation. With such provided the reader can not only séé and learn but also diito whether it is indeed about a higher level of finish, about higher spec properties or about taste.

I (same with Robert (RLK)) have posted much (probably more than most can take) on the topic (sorry no book). I tend to stay away from the taste / fashion thing. Like I said take a look at my website which is better organized than the FL regarding German and Austrian hat companies (this is my focus).

mayserwegener · Mar 12, 2014

Lefty said:
Here's what I've read:
I want an answer to my question.
No one has the answer to my question.
I refuse to do my own research to answer my question.

It's a sad story, often told...
by short-term, former members.

+1

fedoracentric · Mar 12, 2014

Lefty said:
Here's what I've read:
I want an answer to my question.
No one has the answer to my question.
I refuse to do my own research to answer my question.

It's a sad story, often told...
by short-term, former members.

+1

I also envision some fist shaking and maybe a baby rattle.

Huertecilla · Mar 12, 2014

mayserwegener said:
I (same with Robert (RLK)) have posted much (probably more than most can take) on the topic (sorry no book). I tend to stay away from the taste / fashion thing. Like I said take a look at my website which is better organized than the FL regarding German and Austrian hat companies (this is my focus).

Have visited several threads already and will spend quite a bit more time there.
Thanks for sharing.

The Hückel brand(s) have me WOWWW!!
The white one is simply supreme and although the ´seal´ finish takes getting used to it is amazing.
I am fluent in spoken and written german so will take a plunge deeper than surfing tonight when the family is off to bed.
Thanks for the eye-opener/pointer.

As to the homework you guys are quite correct. I lóve researching and source checking. However I don´t see the sense in doing legwork, just because info on fora is badly organised. I mean; when the info is there and the search function not sufficient; use the tool mankind developed for that; language; ask!
Honi soit qui mal y pense

alanfgag · Mar 12, 2014

Use Google to search... (your question) + "the fedora lounge." Answers will unfold.

GHT · Mar 12, 2014

alanfgag said:
I think we've discussed this before.

That maybe so, but if I can't get the search function to work, it still gives me adverts from the above shirt company, what chance has a newbie got, unless he spends months pouring through old threads? If you know of a way to fix it, I, and probably many others, would be most grateful.

Huertecilla, have you ever thought of, or in fact knew, that you can actually buy, new or old, a Fedora Panama?
My guess is that ex-pats all look like cricket umpires in their uniform Panamas, and that's not the image you want. That link gives you a site that sells Panama Fedoras from thirty five quid up to about one fifty.

alanfgag said:
Use Google to search... (your question) + "the fedora lounge." Answers will unfold.

I see that you have pre-empted me. But, how would anyone know that the search is more of an intelligence test, than an actual search?

Hoyt Clagwell · Mar 12, 2014

When all is said and done, someday you will have a panama.

RBH · Mar 12, 2014

It seems no one uses this anymore...

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?52584-Links-To-Important-Hat-Forum-Threads

That is why I seldom update it.
But a search thread is listed...I understand its not the best but its the best we have now.
I know of no search that does not require some research of our own.

Mr.Astor · Mar 12, 2014

Wow,here we go!

jlee562 · Mar 12, 2014

Huertecilla said:
To the contrary what I am asking for is a factual, illustrated foundation for narratives concluding that a reviewed hat/model/model line from brand X is or is not as good as the vintage predecessor.
The reader can than see, learn, weigh the difference.

The problem is that the kinds of empirical evidence you're asking for simply aren't within the means of most of us here.

I can tell you that the felt on my vintage Stetson is more dense than a modern hat, but how do I prove this to your satisfaction? It's not something that photographs without a microscope. Something I don't have. Even then, we'd be looking at pictures of fibers.

More generally speaking, you seem to be asking from a place of incredulity. If you believe it is true that modern hats are at the quality of vintage hats, I would ask you to prove that maxim.

fedoracentric · Mar 12, 2014

(Of course, it's possible that it is a communication issue. He did say he was learning other languages, so maybe it is just a miscommunication of tone?)

GHT · Mar 12, 2014

RBH said:
It seems no one uses this anymore...

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?52584-Links-To-Important-Hat-Forum-Threads

That is why I seldom update it.
But a search thread is listed...I understand its not the best but its the best we have now.
I know of no search that does not require some research of our own.

I know that when you are in a hole, it's best to stop digging. That's where I find myself. I didn't read the thread right.
When I joined this forum, it was easy to just go into search and find previous threads, thus negating the need to start a new one.
That doesn't happen anymore.

DougC · Mar 12, 2014

Hat felting was an art and to take a quantitative look at the hat made then compared to now would be like trying to quantify a work of art by an old master compared to the work of a modern artist. Some in both camps are good, some are not to my liking, but, its still art. I stand by the comment that "you'll know it when you see it." So, rather than argue about it..go buy a vintage hat and a modern hat and compare them.

Huertecilla · Mar 12, 2014

Hoyt Clagwell said:
When all is said and done, someday you will have a panama.

Possible, ...when I am 80 and in a wheelchair. One never knows.

With a Panama the issue is not the model but the light straw. I have seriously contemplated a light grey or champagne band to differ from the predominantly black ones, but there is no escaping the fact that it is THE UK pensioners' wear, worrn in all models.

Yes, there is no competition as to the best utilitarian summer hat. The contractors give straw hats away with their company name on the band as it is all but obligatory to wear one during hey time.
I thus have a pile of cheap straw hats for when out under the blazing sun with 40 C. in the shade and an open weave straw hat is a matter of survival.
There you have it. Panama hats ARE the best summer hats.

For me an important function of the social wear hat is looking smart and over here that is effectively sabotaged by the British pensioners. The Panama hat is as pulled up white socks in sandals.
So I will keep honoring the straw hat as ideal work wear and not as social wear.
Just as the smart factor will also keep me from buying a Seal hat however much I am impressed by that finish. I know that cool is what cool people wear but even if I were cool, there are limits; it does not make sense to don a disadvantage, vintage quality or not.

Huertecilla · Mar 12, 2014

DougC said:
Hat felting was an art

I would call it a craft, a skill. I don't see the individual creativity, expression which can make it an art, unlike hat design/making.
As to more skill/time allowed making for better felt I have no doubt. As does a better design of the mechanised part of the process.
The crux in this context is whether vintage being better is as certain as gravity and the Stetson quality thread seems to indicate that it is not a given.

DougC · Mar 12, 2014

I think you just nailed the issue and the answer-some of the new Stetson hats are very nice. And, they compare nicely to the vintage hats I have seen and felt (no pun intended). Other modern hats I have seen don't compare. Likewise, some of the vintage hats I have handled don't compare to other vintage hats. I think that's why the comparison threads are so popular. Then add in each person's taste and you will never get a comparison like you are looking for. My suggestions, if you don't want to buy hats, is to go hang out at a hat shop that refurbishes hats and ask to see and feel as many hats as you can. When I did that, the "gold standard" was an older Borsalino. But, I really like my Stetson Premier Strat--completely different hats and ( I would guess) furs used in the process of making each hat. But, the only way to know for sure in the felt is to test each hat--I'm not going to do that as it would damage the hat. Not sure if you are getting this from my answers so far--I like each of my hats (vintage or modern) for different reasons. If I don't like a hat, I don't keep it!

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